M:We make decisions in the present - not in the future. Unlike God, who experiences time in the past, present, and future simultaneously, we experience time in the present only.

7At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. 9And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

Why do you say my view means the day and hour of Jesus' return is "set"?

Do you think I'm saying God "set" the time?

In what sense do you think it means the time is "set"?

There are at least hundreds of texts in Scripture, if not thousands, that inform us that God makes decisions and experiences time as we do, and none that depict God making decisions as you are suggesting. I've quoted the following many times, without your responding, that I recall:



Just like a human being, God will change His mind when He gets new information to act on. There are many, many examples of God's doing this in Scripture.

Because under your view the time for Christ's coming is certain to occur on a specific date.



I'm not saying anything about this.



As stated above.

Here's what you said before:



I underlined it. Here's what you just said recently that's new:



The underlined part is different. (At least, I don't recall seeing it before).

Regarding much of the rest, God did not directly create you or I or Hitler. God created Adam. We were procreated. God created a sinless being with free will. The rest of us were born into a fallen race. This *is* a very different situation.

Regarding Jesus' not saying He wouldn't succeed, I've never claimed that He didn't. I said there was risk involved in His coming. EW 125 makes it very clear what was going on. There was a meeting, Jesus was distressed, and on the third time He was relieved. Why? Because God made a decision that Christ could come, a decision which the angel related to EGW was a "struggle."

Under your view, none of this makes any sense.

Your reasoning is convoluted here to. It reminds me of the reasoning people use to disregard the Sabbath. Where does the Jesus say we should keep the Sabbath after His death they ask? Your argument is the same as theirs. It's a specious argument.



My view is that:

1.Christ took a risk in coming to save us.
2.Heaven was imperiled for our redemption.

Here's a "thus saith the Lord" to support this:



You have not even a semblance of an explanation for this. If your view were correct, that would mean that God was eternally certain from all eternity, to be redundantly clear, that heaven was not and never would be in any danger whatsoever. So how could God reveal through a prophet that it was imperiled?



Christ did succeed. So He was telling them the truth.



Well, this is obvious, given that Christ took a risk in coming here, and that all heaven was imperiled for our redemption, right? I mean, given that Christ could have failed, He must have known that, right?

A "Thus saith the Lord" is not to be set aside for a "Thus saith the church" or a "Thus saith the state." {GW 389.2}

Every doctrine must be brought to the Bible. Every perplexing question must be settled by a "thus saith the Lord." {RH, February 25, 1890 par. 8}

In public labor do not make prominent, and quote that which Sister White has written, as authority to sustain your positions. To do this will not increase faith in the testimonies. Bring your evidences, clear and plain, from the Word of God. A "Thus saith the Lord" is the strongest testimony you can possibly present to the people. Let none be educated to look to Sister White, but to the mighty God, who gives instruction to Sister White.--Letter 11, 1894. {3SM 29.3}

Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says. {SpM 167.2}

Tom, I don't appreciate the way you glossed over the majority of my comments and questions. Please go back and address them carefully. Thank you.

M:His experience in the past and the future has zero affect on our experience in the present for the simple reason we do not exist in the past or the future.

The underlined part is different. (At least, I don't recall seeing it before).

Regarding much of the rest, God did not directly create you or I or Hitler. God created Adam. We were procreated. God created a sinless being with free will. The rest of us were born into a fallen race. This *is* a very different situation.

Regarding Jesus' not saying He wouldn't succeed, I've never claimed that He didn't. I said there was risk involved in His coming. EW 125 makes it very clear what was going on. There was a meeting, Jesus was distressed, and on the third time He was relieved. Why? Because God made a decision that Christ could come, a decision which the angel related to EGW was a "struggle."

Under your view, none of this makes any sense.

Your reasoning is convoluted here to. It reminds me of the reasoning people use to disregard the Sabbath. Where does the Jesus say we should keep the Sabbath after His death they ask? Your argument is the same as theirs. It's a specious argument.

It sounds like you think I disagree with you?

M:Do you think Jesus will certainly return on a specific date?

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Rev 10:5-7

Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:5-7.