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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #130143
01/15/11 12:37 AM
01/15/11 12:37 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
If you take the time to google “benefits of drinking alcohol” you will find “The benefits of alcohol consumption have long been known. The Bible refers to alcohol's medicinal properties no less than 191 times.

Where does the Bible speak about the benefits of alcohol?

Quote:
Alcohol is beneficial in controlling the following conditions

HRT, for example, does have some benefits, but it also has risks. So, are these "benefits" really benefits?
Speaking about alcohol. It increases breast cancer risk. It's also a teratogen (i.e.,causes malformation of an embryo). So, for a woman, are all those "benefits" this article mentions really benefits?

Quote:
From the article quoted:
Quote:
Moderate drinkers live longer than those who either abstain from alcohol or who drink heavily.

? This doesn't seem to be true in Loma Linda. The truth is, all those benefits mentioned in the article should be achieved through a good lifestyle, not through alcohol.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #130151
01/15/11 08:02 PM
01/15/11 08:02 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: kland
Vaster, Ellen White says that there are at least appear to be short term benefits from taking drugs. One could then argue that under certain circumstances one should use drugs. But, if there are no benefits from taking drugs, you couldn't ever argue that. Some say taking shark cartilage gives benefits. Therefore, one could argue the they should take it. However, if there are no benefits and only harm, could they argue they should take it?

She also says that all drugs are harmful in spite of their short term appearing benefits. I don't do drugs whether it's alcohol, smoking, medical, or otherwise.

Now, if I had an accident, I would do drugs at a minimal amount knowing full well they were harmful, but the benefit of recovering would outweigh it. Therefore, I could argue there are certain rare cases where it's ok to take drugs even if they are harmful. Those promoting vaccines would likewise say the same excepting that is a non-emergency supposed benefit from some supposed future anticipated event. Similarly, I would not take any poison for cancer treatments.
How can it be that you regard harmful drugs beneficial for recovering from an accident? In what way is it helpful to introduce harmful substances into your body in a situation when it in a crisis, such as after an accident?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Rosangela] #130162
01/17/11 01:19 AM
01/17/11 01:19 AM
J
JAK  Offline
FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
From the article quoted:
Quote:
Moderate drinkers live longer than those who either abstain from alcohol or who drink heavily.

? This doesn't seem to be true in Loma Linda. The truth is, all those benefits mentioned in the article should be achieved through a good lifestyle, not through alcohol.


..."Studies have shown that wine can be beneficial to health,..." So I guess it is true, even at Loma Linda.

http://lomalindahealth.org/health-library/a-z-health-guide/1/002446.htm


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #130163
01/17/11 01:31 AM
01/17/11 01:31 AM
J
JAK  Offline
FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
Whether or not the benefits of alcohol can be had by other means is not the question at hand. kland made the statement that:
Quote:
So far no one has given any benefit from drinking alcohol.

The point is that there are benefits from alcohol.

No one is saying rush out and start drinking. If you don't drink, don't start. If you are pregnant, don't drink. If other health issues, don't drink. But there are health benefits, just be reasonable and moderate.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #130191
01/18/11 03:19 PM
01/18/11 03:19 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Originally Posted By: JAK
The point is that there are benefits from alcohol.
Quote:

..."Studies have shown that wine can be beneficial to health,..." So I guess it is true, even at Loma Linda.
Are we talking about alcohol or wine?

I suspect the "benefits" page you copied from is about wine. Would the same benefits be had if the alcohol were evaporated out of the wine, beer, etc.? Could you distinguish between alcohol and whatever it's in regarding the benefits in order to support your claim that there are benefits.

Quote:
No one is saying rush out and start drinking. If you don't drink, don't start. If you are pregnant, don't drink. If other health issues, don't drink. But there are health benefits, just be reasonable and moderate.
Why not? If there are health benefits, why shouldn't we go out and start drinking? And why shouldn't children get a head start on such benefits?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #130196
01/18/11 04:17 PM
01/18/11 04:17 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Are we talking about alcohol or wine?


This is a good question.

From the research I've done, there are some benefits from red wine which are also present in red grape juice, having to do with properties of the grape skins, and unrelated to whether the wine is fermented or not.

Regarding alcohol, from the research I've seen, there's a lot of disagreement in different studies that have done, differing on whether alcohol is beneficial or not, and how much is too much, to the point that it's harmful. One of the difficulties has been isolating factors. For example, if one drinks alcohol, and there's some correspondence to some positive thing, is the correlation due to the alcohol, or something else? (e.g., the grape skins, in the case of red wine). At any rate, these studies, from what I've seen, seem to be all over the place. Some studies suggest that even a small amount of alcohol can be detrimental.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Tom] #130202
01/18/11 04:33 PM
01/18/11 04:33 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
A proper study would be to do one involving only alcohol. Have you heard of any?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #130213
01/18/11 11:01 PM
01/18/11 11:01 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Yes, there have been quite a few. You can look around on the Internet. Difficulties involve isolating the cause. For example, if there's a beneficial effect, is it due to the alcohol, or something else? And similarly for detrimental effects.

Also there's a difficulty in quantifying problems. For example, there may be a link between alcohol and some form of cancer. But how much alcohol must one take before there's an appreciable danger? For example, I think there's a consensus that drinking a bottle of wine a day would be dangerous (unless you were huge), but what about half a bottle? Or just a glass? That's not clear.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #130215
01/19/11 02:41 PM
01/19/11 02:41 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Originally Posted By: JAK

Unfortunately the texts used to support this are misapplied. (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19; and 2 Cor. 6:16) They do not refer to food or alcohol, but to divisions in the church (1 Cor. 3:16), joining oneself with a prostitute (1 Cor. 6:19), and “being yoked with unbelievers” (2 Cor. 6:16)

According to the text, why should one not join oneself with a prostitute?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Tom] #130216
01/19/11 03:14 PM
01/19/11 03:14 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Originally Posted By: Tom
Yes, there have been quite a few.

I searched but had trouble finding many. Most talk of flavonoids and non-flavonoids found in grape skins which would not be found in alcohol. However, I did come across this:
Quote:
The findings indicate that one likely positive benefit of moderate ethanol consumption is to diminish the production of fibrinogen, which reduces the potential risk exerted by this protein. The site of action of ethanol is, at least in part, exerted at the level of gene transcription.
which they give as a benefit of reducing the clotting protein. In which case, one could then argue the benefits of drinking alcohol in spite of what the Bible says. However, is reducing a clotting protein beneficial? If I'm understanding it correctly, I suppose so if one also doesn't regard other health matters and has high cholesterol and about ready to have a heart attack. It also would bother me about the gene transcription effect.

So instead of "pure alcohol", I looked up ethanol and found a number of health benefits. However, those sites talked about E85 and fuel.

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