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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13045
04/26/05 04:44 AM
04/26/05 04:44 AM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
When Christ comes again, it is not only known sin that must be overcome (which is how you have defined your use of "defect of character") but unknown sin as well (which I would also view as a "defect of character"). So I would say that all defects of character must be remedied before Christ comes again, and this does not happen when one is born again, or Christ could have come long ago.

What is it that causes unknown sin to become known? It's truth. What else could it be?

The Spirit of Prophesy refers to the work of Jones and Waggoner as the "beginning of the latter rain" and the loud cry of the third angels message, identifying it with that other angel in Revelation 18, which will fill the earth with its glory. If we would be ready for Christ's coming, not a bad place to start would be by studying the message which the Lord gave for that very purpose.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13046
04/26/05 01:05 PM
04/26/05 01:05 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
Did this apply to Jesus' human nature, too? That is, did His sinful nature generate and communicate unholy thoughts and feelings that He had to resist on a daily basis? If so, how do these temptations differ from the ones we experience because our defective traits of character haven't been eliminated yet?
Mike, once Jesus had no sinful propensities, I think it would be risky to try to define if and to what extent Christ had to resist unholy thoughts and feelings generated by His own nature. What we do know is that He was tempted through legitimate human needs and instincts, and that He was tempted to distrust God, to act independently of God. Appetite was the basis of the first temptation. The second temptation was to act independently of God. The basis of the third temptation was the instinct to preserve life, to avoid suffering. All these are things with which human nature can be tempted. It is said of Christ, for instance,

"Christ was put to the closest test, requiring the strength of all his faculties to resist the inclination when in danger, to use his power to deliver himself from peril, and triumph over the power of the prince of darkness. Satan showed his knowledge of the weak points of the human heart, and put forth his utmost power to take advantage of the weakness of the humanity which Christ had assumed in order to overcome his temptations on man's account." {RH, April 1, 1875 par. 3}

It is proper of human nature the impulse to deliver oneself from peril, and Christ had divine power to do so. Appetite, the impulse to preserve life, the impulse to deliver oneself from peril, the impulse to distrust God when things get difficult, would all constitue weak points of the human heart.

quote:
But, if we retain our defective traits of character when we are born again, and if they devolve, diminish and disappear gradually, over the course of a lifetime, what will Jesus do with them when He returns if they haven't been eliminated yet? Since Jesus will not, and cannot, change of characters when He returns, and since we cannot enter heaven with our defects, when will they be eliminated?
Well, I think we must trust God’s promise, “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6), or until the day of our death.

It seems, however, that if self and sin are completely subdued and yielded to God in this life, they will no longer represent a problem when Satan’s temptations no longer exist. "As long as Satan reigns we shall have self to subdue [and] besetments to overcome" (AG 291), even after our conversion, but this will cease to be a problem after Jesus' coming.

Another important thing to notice is that it is not only character defects that must be under subjection to Christ, but

“There is not an impulse of our nature, not a faculty of the mind or an inclination of the heart, but needs to be, moment by moment, under the control of the Spirit of God. There is not a blessing which God bestows upon man, nor a trial which he permits to befall him, but Satan both can and will seize upon it to tempt, to harass, and destroy the soul, if we give him the least advantage. Therefore however great one's spiritual light, however much he may enjoy of the divine favor and blessing, he should ever walk humbly before the Lord, pleading in faith that God will direct every thought and control every impulse. {MYP 62.1}

“All who profess godliness are under the most sacred obligation to guard the spirit, and to exercise self-control under the greatest provocation. The burdens placed upon Moses were very great; few men will ever be so severely tried as he was; yet this was not allowed to excuse his sin. God has made ample provision for His people; and if they rely upon His strength, they will never become the sport of circumstances. The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel any one to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer.”{MYP 62.2}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13047
04/26/05 04:22 PM
04/26/05 04:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, please quote where Sister White refers to sins of ignorance as defective traits of character. I made an argument, posted above, that she never referred to them that way.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13048
04/26/05 04:54 PM
04/26/05 04:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Rosangela, aren’t all temptations nothing more than the perversion of innocent, legitimate needs? Jesus was tempted in all points, not just the ones He resisted in the wilderness. He was tempted left and right, continually, the same as born again believers. He was not, however, tempted like an unbeliever. There is a difference. His human nature was sinful, the same as ours. It tempted Him the same as it tempts born again believers.

3SM 132
He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. . . . He was "in all points tempted like as we are" (Heb. 4:15). He exercised in His own behalf no power which man cannot exercise. As man He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become partakers of the divine nature, and assures us that we may overcome as He overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which Christ received, it is possible for man to obey God's law.-- Manuscript 141, 1901. {3SM 132.4}

What does she mean by, “He assumed human nature, with… its temptations”? What is the origin and source of these temptations? I believe the following quote explains what she means:

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

Jesus wrestled with these very same carnal, fleshly lusts and affections. That’s why He can identify and sympathize with struggling believers. He knows, by experience, just how powerful is the craving and clamoring of fallen flesh nature. “He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world, which had brought upon man inexpressible suffering.” (1SM 271)

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13049
04/26/05 05:25 PM
04/26/05 05:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Rosangela, is it possible that what you are calling defective "traits" of character is more accurately what Sister White calls "inherited and cultivated tendencies" to evil, to wrong? "The world is becoming more and more devoted to the service of sin. Each age, as it passes, bequeaths to the one following its accumulation of contamination." (RH 2-11-1902)

Since we inherit natural tendencies, inclinations, propensities to sin, evil, wrongdoing they cannot be construed as defective "traits" of character, because character, good or evil, is the result habitual thoughts, words and deeds. "... character is not inherited." (PP 223) "The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts." (SC 57, 58)

RC 354
Too often we grieve the heart of Jesus by our unbelief. Our faith is shortsighted, and we allow trials to bring out our inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {RC 354.4}

AH 206
The converting power of God can transform inherited and cultivated tendencies; for the religion of Jesus is uplifting. "Born again" means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. {AH 206.1}

MYP 68
When the grace of God takes possession of the heart, it is seen that the inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong must be crucified. A new life, under new control, must begin in the soul. All that is done must be done to the glory of God. This work includes the outward as well as the inward man. The entire being, body, soul, and spirit, must be brought into subjection to God, to be used by Him as an instrument of righteousness. {MYP 68.3}

RC 298
Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace and Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. {RC 298.2}

PP 223
An upright character is of greater worth than the gold of Ophir. Without it none can rise to an honorable eminence. But character is not inherited. It cannot be bought. Moral excellence and fine mental qualities are not the result of accident. The most precious gifts are of no value unless they are improved. The formation of a noble character is the work of a lifetime and must be the result of diligent and persevering effort. God gives opportunities; success depends upon the use made of them. {PP 223.1}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13050
04/27/05 04:15 AM
04/27/05 04:15 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The word "defect" means "imperfection". Do you believe that one's character is perfect the moment one is born again? I suppose it's possible to believe this according to how you define your terms, but this is not the normal way this subject is understood.

Is it your understanding that the SOP teaches our characters our perfect the moment we believe in Christ? If so, is that the same as saying that Christ's character is reproduced in us? If that's so, then why hasn't Christ come, given that He will come when His character is reproduced in us?

And how does the message of Christ's righteousness fit into this?

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13051
04/27/05 05:34 AM
04/27/05 05:34 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, yes, we are born again morally complete, morally perfect. God implants within us all the righteous fruits and attributes of His character the moment we are born again. We do not gradually accumulate them. Not one is missing the moment we are born again. We are not, however, born again morally mature. Like Jesus, like Adam and Eve, we begin morally perfect and we become morally perfect, as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime, the result of lifelong obedience. From faith to faith, from grace to grace, from glory to glory we become more and more mature in the righteous fruits and attributes God implanted within us the moment we experienced true and genuine converison.

The quote you eluded to, the one regarding perfection, applies to the corporate church, not to individual members. The reason Jesus hasn't returned yet is because conversion is a rare thing, many, so many, have not been truly born again, self did not die, therefore, they did not rise up to newness of life, and that is why there are so many perplexities in the church, which is also why Jesus hasn't returned yet. Not until the "shaking" purifies the church will Jesus be able to return. The message of Christ's righteousness is justification and sanctification by faith, the results of which cause us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus.

AA 560, 561
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}

COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

DA 676
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

COL 69
"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13052
04/27/05 11:45 AM
04/27/05 11:45 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
Since we inherit natural tendencies, inclinations, propensities to sin, evil, wrongdoing they cannot be construed as defective "traits" of character, because character, good or evil, is the result habitual thoughts, words and deeds.
Mike,

You are making a distinction which in fact does not exist. When you inherit or acquire a sinful propensity, it is inevitable that it will mold your habitual thoughts, words and deeds. Thus, an evil trait of character is a defect of character, which is nothing but a sinful tendency weaved into the character:

The men connected with the work of God in the office, the sanitarium, and the college can be accounted safe men only so far as they assimilate to the character of Christ. But many have inherited traits of character that in no way represent the divine Model. There are many who have some defect of character received as a birthright, which they have not overcome, but have cherished as though it were fine gold, and brought with them into their religious experience. In many cases these traits are retained through the entire life. For a time no particular harm may be seen to result from them; but the leaven is at work, and when a favorable opportunity arrives, the evil manifests itself.
Some of these men who have marked deformities of character have strong, decided opinions and are unyielding when it would be Christlike to yield to others whose love for the cause of truth is just as deep as their own. Such persons need to cultivate opposite traits of character and to learn to esteem others better than themselves. ... Men of various temperaments and defective characters can see the faults of others, but do not seem to have a knowledge of their own errors; and if left to carry out their own plans without consultation with others, they would make sad mistakes. {5T 418 }

Well may mortal man be afraid of weaving into his character the miserable threads of his own inherited and cultivated tendencies. {BTS, August 1, 1903}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13053
04/27/05 11:51 AM
04/27/05 11:51 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
we are born again morally complete, morally perfect.
Do you mean all our sinful propensities are eliminated?

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13054
04/28/05 03:46 AM
04/28/05 03:46 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Rosangela, that's my point. Character is not inherited. We do not inherit the character that our ancestors developed during their lifetime. But we do inherit their sinful propensities; the evil tendencies to wrongdoing that were fortified and strengthened as they habitually made sinful choices and developed sinful traits of character. We inherit sinful nature, and the sinful propensities associated with it, but we do not inherit sinful character. Character is the stuff of choices, not the result of chance.

Character is the fruit of willful, deliberate, and habitual choices, not the result of accident or ignorance. Character is part of our moral makeup. Thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and behaviour combined make up the moral character. Character is the result of making habitual choices for or against our moral conscience and convictions of right and wrong. Non-Christians can develop, even before they are born again, noble traits of character.

However, even though unbelievers, and unconverted believers, are capable of developing Christlike traits of character, each trait is unsanctified and unholy in the eyes of God. But from a human perspective we may not be able to tell the difference, especially in partially converted church members. We cannot develop holy and righteous traits of character, habits that meet with God’s approval, until we experience the miracle of rebirth.

After we complete the process of conversion, all of our former, nobler traits and habits are sanctified, plus we begin developing all the rest of the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character, which we received as a “harmonious whole” the moment we were born again. “Not one will be missing.” As newborn babes, we are “complete in Christ.” “All malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings” have been crucified.

“If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” While walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we “do not and cannot” commit a former old man habit of sin. “For he that is dead is freed from sin.” He has “ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” Whoever abides in Jesus “sinneth not.”

3T 499
When the character is formed, the habits fixed, and the mental and moral faculties have become firm, it is most difficult to unlearn wrong habits, to be prompt in action. {3T 499.2}

RC 301
If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {RC 301.2}

SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

COL 281
Every sin cherished weakens the character and strengthens the habit; and physical, mental, and moral depravity result. You may repent of the wrong you have done, and set your feet in right paths; but the mold of your mind and your familiarity with evil will make it difficult for you to distinguish between right and wrong. Through the wrong habits you have formed Satan will assail you again and again. {COL 281.1}

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