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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13065
04/28/05 10:56 PM
04/28/05 10:56 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Actually, Thomas, it's both. We begin born again and, if we remain faithful and steadfast, we end up born again. The thief on the cross was born again, and even though he died before he had a chance to develop the holy traits of character God implanted in him, he will be in heaven. We know this is true because Jesus said no one can enter heaven who hasn't been born again. Jesus will not change the thief's character when He returns, thus it was obviously changed the moment he was born again on the cross. It was a thorough and radical change, to say the least.
ML 250
This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
AA 561
Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}
RC 48
The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to go on unto perfection, to grow up unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. (RC 48)
ML 249
Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality. (ML 249)
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13066
04/29/05 05:25 AM
04/29/05 05:25 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Old Tom: Your view seems to be that our characters are perfected in an instant, the moment we believe in Christ. I was asking for some SOP statement to that effect.
Mike: Remember, Jesus was born morally perfect (complete), and He became morally perfect (mature) as He grew from childhood to manhood. It’s the same way for born again believers. They are born again morally perfect (complete), and they become morally perfect (mature) as they grow in grace. So long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we advance from one stage of perfection to another, from glory to glory – not from greater sins to lesser sins. And, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
New and improved Tom: Making a comparison between Christ as He was born and a born again believer is a rather odd comparison since there are more differences than similarities by a long shot. For example:
1) Christ never sinned.
2) Christ was divine.
3) Christ was a baby.
To say that believers are born again "morally perfect" is a strange use of words. You redefine "perfect" as "complete" which is OK for Greek, but a rather odd use of the word in English. Does it mean anything different than merely saying that born again believers are converted and in harmony with God? I think that's a lot easier to understand, and something everyone would agree to (as well as being Scriptural).
Let's return for a moment to the question of whether one's character is instantaneously made perfect when one is born again. Is this what you believe?
You made a comparison with Christ as a baby. This is an odd comparison to make regarding perfection of character because as a baby Christ had not character, or perhaps more accurately, He had the character of an infant. That's certainly not comporable to the character of an adult, whether born again or not -- they're entirely different things in character (pardon the pun).
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13067
04/29/05 12:38 PM
04/29/05 12:38 PM
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Brazil
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quote:
Rosangela, the disciples did not experience the miracle of rebirth until after Jesus’ resurrection, until after He breathed on them the Holy Spirit. At that point, they were born again.
There was a time I used to think like that, but I couldn't harmonize this view with the following quote from The Desire of Ages 648:
"'Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit.'
"These words mean more than bodily cleanliness. Christ is still speaking of the higher cleansing as illustrated by the lower. He who came from the bath was clean, but the sandaled feet soon became dusty, and again needed to be washed. So Peter and his brethren had been washed in the great fountain opened for sin and uncleanness. Christ acknowledged them as His. But temptation had led them into evil, and they still needed His cleansing grace. When Jesus girded Himself with a towel to wash the dust from their feet, He desired by that very act to wash the alienation, jealousy, and pride from their hearts. This was of far more consequence than the washing of their dusty feet. With the spirit they then had, not one of them was prepared for communion with Christ. Until brought into a state of humility and love, they were not prepared to partake of the paschal supper, or to share in the memorial service which Christ was about to institute. Their hearts must be cleansed. Pride and self-seeking create dissension and hatred, but all this Jesus washed away in washing their feet. A change of feeling was brought about. Looking upon them, Jesus could say, 'Ye are clean.' Now there was union of heart, love for one another. They had become humble and teachable. Except Judas, each was ready to concede to another the highest place. Now with subdued and grateful hearts hey could receive Christ's words.
"Like Peter and his brethren, we too have been washed in the blood of Christ, yet often through contact with evil the heart's purity is soiled. We must come to Christ for His cleansing grace."
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13068
04/30/05 03:37 AM
04/30/05 03:37 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The Scriptures say: quote:
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. (John 1:11)
If we don't understand that the disciples were born again, we're pretty much destined to miss just about all of what the Gospels have to teach us. The disciples were just like us. The which healed them will heal us, if we recognize we need healing. But as Jesus said, those who are whole have no need of a physician. That is, if we have a false view of ourselves, as the pharisees did of themselves, then we will not avail ourselves of the help Christ longs to give us.
This lack of perception reminds me of a Brazilian hymn: "Sim eis-nos prontos" (Yes, we're ready). It's referring to the episode where Christ asked the question, "Are you ready to be baptized with the baptism I will be batized with?" and they foolishly responded, "yes," not recognizing their true condition. In the hymn we sing, apparently rejoicing in their ignorance, "Yes we're ready," but I can't help but feel that we are no more ready than they were and our blindness is no less than theirs.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13069
04/30/05 04:59 AM
04/30/05 04:59 AM
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OP
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quote:
1) Christ never sinned.
2) Christ was divine.
3) Christ was a baby.
1) "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
"The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." (MH 180)
2) "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4)
"We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, Cleanse us and change us? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. I and the Father are one. He was in the express image of the Father’s person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ." (1 S&T 247)
3) "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." (1 Peter 2:1-3)
"We are to see and understand the instruction given us by the great apostle, 'As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby,' in perception, in likeness to the character of Christ. Development of character, growth in knowledge and wisdom, will be the sure result of feeding on the word." (MM 124)
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13070
04/30/05 05:06 AM
04/30/05 05:06 AM
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quote:
Let's return for a moment to the question of whether one's character is instantaneously made perfect when one is born again. Is this what you believe?
Sister White makes it clear that God implants within the heart and mind of born again believers all the fruits and righteous attributes of God. These traits of character are perfect. However, like Jesus, like Adam and Eve, we must cooperate with the Spirit of God and nurture, cultivate and develop them, beginning at rebirth and continuing throughout eternity.
DA 676
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13071
04/30/05 05:14 AM
04/30/05 05:14 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
1) Christ never sinned.
2) Christ was divine.
3) Christ was a baby.
Regarding 1) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)
Regarding 2), I don't know why you quoted the SOP quote, as it has nothing to do with this, that I can see. The Scripture quote says we partake of the divine nature, but that doesn't make us divine.
Regarding 3), Paul is making an analogy that when one is newly come to the truth, one is *like* a new-born babe, not that one is literally a baby. Christ was a baby was literally a baby, which is a very different thing than an adult.
A more fit analogy would be that when we are born again, we are like Abraham was when he was born again. Any comparison we make to Jesus will result in our falling far short in the comparison.
Rather than just quoting Scriptures or EGW texts, I appeal to you, as I have in the past, to please explain your meaning. Why are you quoting the texts you are? Please don't make me try to read your mind.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13072
04/30/05 05:15 AM
04/30/05 05:15 AM
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OP
SDA
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Jesus spoke of Peter's conversion, during the Last Supper, in the future tense. Peter was in the "process of conversion" until after the resurrection of Jesus.
Luke
22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
5T 570
The Lord wants you and your family to be Christians in every sense of the word and to show in your characters the sanctifying power of the truth. If you had formed such characters, your works would stand the test of the judgment; should the fires of the last day kindle upon your works as they now are, they would prove to be only hay, wood, and stubble. Do not think this severe; it is true. Self has been mingled with all your labors. Will you come up to the high standard? It will be like learning the first principles of what constitutes a Christian character. Christ said to the apostle Peter: "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." You, likewise, must be converted before you can do acceptable work for the Master. {5T 570.2}
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13073
04/30/05 05:17 AM
04/30/05 05:17 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom: Let's return for a moment to the question of whether one's character is instantaneously made perfect when one is born again. Is this what you believe?
Mike: Sister White makes it clear that God implants within the heart and mind of born again believers all the fruits and righteous attributes of God. These traits of character are perfect. However, like Jesus, like Adam and Eve, we must cooperate with the Spirit of God and nurture, cultivate and develop them, beginning at rebirth and continuing throughout eternity.
New Tom: Does this mean the answer to my question is "yes"?
If our perception of God's character is off, way off say, do you think it is possible for us to have characters which have no defects?
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13074
04/30/05 05:23 AM
04/30/05 05:23 AM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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quote:
… humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin.
There is not a stain in the character because …
Tom, what do these insights say to you?
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