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Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13162
03/30/05 10:18 PM
03/30/05 10:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Provide the evidence and you take away the faith.

I don't think this is what the verse had in mind. That is, the interpretation you are suggesting (unless I misunderstood it, which is certainly possible) seems to be saying that faith should not be based on evidence, or is not based on evidence. But that is the very opposite of what God is saying, which is that faith *is* based on evidence.

quote:
God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His Word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth, will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith. (Steps to Christ 105 (1892))
quote:
God gives sufficient evidence to every soul. He does not promise to remove every doubt, but He gives a reason for faith. (MS 127, 1899)
Maybe what you meant is that God will not remove every doubt. But faith is certainly based on evidence. The stronger our faith becomes, the clearer that evidence is in our minds.

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13163
03/31/05 01:27 AM
03/31/05 01:27 AM
Davros  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
I've had a thought. Perhaps God does not make it hard to beliveve, but it is the devil/sin that dose.

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13164
03/31/05 01:33 AM
03/31/05 01:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Not knowing whether or not there is a one and only true God is a legitimate stumbling block for people. Not everybody today is in the same position that Paul spoke about in the following passage:

Romans
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

ED 134
"The invisible things of Him since the creation of the world are . . . perceived through the things that are made, even His everlasting power and divinity." Romans 1:20, R.V. But their testimony can be understood only through the aid of the divine Teacher. {Ed 134.3}

8T 256
And through man's disobedience a change was wrought in nature itself. Marred by the curse of sin, nature can bear but an imperfect testimony regarding the Creator. It cannot reveal His character in its perfection. {8T 256.1}

Not everybody today is in the same position Sister White spoke about in the following passage:

DA 537
That mighty miracle was the crowning evidence offered by God to men that He had sent His Son into the world for their salvation. It was a demonstration of divine power sufficient to convince every mind that was under the control of reason and enlightened conscience. Many who witnessed the resurrection of Lazarus were led to believe on Jesus. But the hatred of the priests against Him was intensified. They had rejected all lesser evidence of His divinity, and they were only enraged at this new miracle. The dead had been raised in the full light of day, and before a crowd of witnesses. No artifice could explain away such evidence. For this very reason the enmity of the priests grew deadlier. They were more than ever determined to put a stop to Christ's work. {DA 537.1}

Things are very much different today. Being this far removed from Eden and the Cross unbelievers need, more than ever before, clear and convincing evidence that God is everything He says about Himself in the Bible. He has set up His remnant believers to be that proof! Now, more than ever, we need to experience righteousness by faith so that our unbelieving brothers and sisters can see in us a reason to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour. What more can we do?

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13165
03/31/05 01:40 AM
03/31/05 01:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
AH 33
The greatest evidence of the power of Christianity that can be presented to the world is a well-ordered, well-disciplined family. This will recommend the truth as nothing else can, for it is a living witness of its practical power upon the heart. {AH 32.2}

AH 36
A well-ordered Christian household is a powerful argument in favor of the reality of the Christian religion--an argument that the infidel cannot gainsay. {AH 36.2}

UL 156
The real evidence of a living God is not merely in theory; it is in the conviction which God has written in our hearts, illuminated and explained by His words. {UL 156.3}

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13166
03/31/05 01:57 AM
03/31/05 01:57 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,122
Nova Scotia, Canada
quote:

Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Provide the evidence and you take away the faith.

I was thinking of evidence which in the sense of sight would remove all faith.

Faith, in the sense of believing in that which you can't see as if you could actually see it, isn't evidence in the way we think of evidence today, but is really faith in the highest sense of the word.

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13167
03/31/05 03:57 AM
03/31/05 03:57 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
I've had a thought. Perhaps God does not make it hard to beliveve, but it is the devil/sin that dose.
Very true indeed. Sin's basis of existence is doubt. The basis of righteousness is faith.

Shalom

P.S. I will be gone on a three week trip to europe. May God bless you all and have a blessed discussion.

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13168
03/31/05 04:57 AM
03/31/05 04:57 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It's true that by faith we believe things we can't see, but lot's of people believe things which they can't see which is just hooey. (hope I spelled that right). We want to believe things which are true, and the truth is based on evidence. The evidence is itself evidence which is not seen, but it is never the less evidence.

I think it's important that we understand that faith is based on evidence, and that we understand what that evidence is, so we have a reason for our faith.

Are we saying the same thing?

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13169
03/31/05 05:09 AM
03/31/05 05:09 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
Faith, in the sense of believing in that which you can't see as if you could actually see it, isn't evidence in the way we think of evidence today, but is really faith in the highest sense of the word.
Daryl, does God expect unbelievers to have this kind of faith in an invisible God? Since God chooses not to appear in the sky to prove His existence, for reasons that make sense to Him, then what tangible, physical evidence does He provide as a substitute today to convince unbelievers of His existence? Evidence must be visible before we can have faith in the invisible, right?

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13170
03/31/05 06:03 AM
03/31/05 06:03 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
For some the the living world and how its made up is the requested evidence, for others it is the living testimony from believers. Im sure there are lots of other evidences too.

/Thomas

Re: Why does God make it so hard to believe? #13171
03/31/05 01:18 PM
03/31/05 01:18 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
But I'm not suggesting that God do miracles. I'm simply asking why doesn't He appear in the sky or something and declare His existence and will for mankind, in a way doesn't consume us in our sins prematurely?
Mike,

God did so in the past, but what was the result? He manifested Himself in awful majesty on top of Mount Sinai and declared His existence and will for mankind, in a way that people could see it without being consumed. However, a few days later they had forgotten all about it and were worshiping a golden calf! Do you think that if God did the same today people would react differently? Were the israelites different from the rest of mankind? I don’t think so.

God’s Spirit works in every heart, and those who follow the impressions of the Spirit will be saved:

“Those whom Christ commends in the judgment [Matt. 25] may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God.”{DA 638}

When I was spending some days at the house of my sister-in-law in December, I talked to a neighbor of hers who did not believe God. But, as we talked, this lady told how, when she was young, one of her children was running a temperature every day. The child was submitted to all possible exams, but no cause was found for the fever. At last doctors admitted they couldn’t do anything else to help the child, except waiting to see what would happen. The lady, not knowing what else to do, asked God to heal the child. On that same day the fever left the child and never returned. Yet this lady later ceased believing in God.

Which reminds me of the little boy who was up on the sloping roof of his father’s garage, when he started to slide and was in danger of falling off the edge. Frantically he cried out, “God, save me! God, save, me!” Just then his trousers got caught on a nail, and he stopped. “Oh, forget it, God,” he said, “my pants got caught.”

Faith depends on the attitude of the heart, not on what God does.

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