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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132290
04/02/11 04:37 PM
04/02/11 04:37 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
It thus seems to me that this “intimate relation” is reciprocal and that a mental moral degeneration through the entertaining and practice of sin tangibly affects the body, possibly recoding one’s DNA.


And this corresponds to the point I've been making about the Tree of Life. Would it recode back the DNA to its original form? Even if you answered that question, "yes," surely you don't think it would change a person's thinking from sinful to righteous. Free will wouldn't allow for that. So the moral and mental degeneration would continue, worse and worse and worse.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132292
04/02/11 04:40 PM
04/02/11 04:40 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
Because God is Just in his character, judicious killing harmonizes with how He sees best to deal with the sin problem. The Theodicy Truth here is not determined by what I need my God to be, but what He has revealed and done in the Bible. God never acts out of Character as that would itself be sin, since He/His Character is already and unimprovingly perfect.


Indeed. Truth is not determined by your need for God to be violent, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ, who perfectly revealed the Father. How violent was He? Did He teach the theory of "judicious killing"?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132293
04/02/11 04:42 PM
04/02/11 04:42 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: APL
You also make the jump that eating the fruit would have maintained perfect health. The fruit of the tree of life could have preserved life. But what kind of life? A life of sin and misery. "For earth's sin and misery the gospel is the only antidote.{MH 141.2}" What Christ achieved, was the only antidote. The physical tree of life could not undo all the damage.


I've been attempting to make this same point. I'm requoting this here because I think this is very clearly put.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132294
04/02/11 04:56 PM
04/02/11 04:56 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
"These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy." {GC 628.2}

"In that day, multitudes will desire the shelter of God's mercy which they have so long despised." (end of EGW quote)


-Sounds indeed like justified and deserving, Divine ‘wrathful’ judgements to me.


It sounds that way to you because of your mind-set. To your way of thinking "judicious violence" is a good thing (or "judicious killing," which is what your actual words were).

The way we view God impacts how we interpret spiritual statements, whether from Scripture or the SOP. To someone who views things the way you do, "Sounds indeed like justified and deserving, Divine ‘wrathful’ judgements to me" is what comes naturally to mind. Someone who views violence/killing/coercion/use of force to get ones way/etc. as contrary to God's character, sees something different happening.

Immediately before the statement you cited, we read:

Quote:
When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out.


Earlier in the chapter she explained:

Quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.


Enumerating what happens:

1.In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.

(This is the problem! There is no more intercessor to defend against the attacks of Apollyon, the destroyer.)

2.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent.

3.God's long-suffering has ended.
(Let's see what happens as a result)

4. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

She concludes the paragraph with a comparison to the destruction of Jerusalem, which she explained in the same terms that she is here explaining the pouring out of the last plagues.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132295
04/02/11 05:07 PM
04/02/11 05:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Moses believed God wanted him to intercede on behalf of Israel. He knew God wasn't serious about wanting to destroy Israel.

Huh? The first part is fine, but the second is a head-scratcher. What makes you think Moses thought God was kidding?

Again, here's what Ellen wrote about it:

Quote:
"Let Me alone, . . . that I may consume them," were the words of God. If God had purposed to destroy Israel, who could plead for them? {PP 318.2}

But Moses discerned ground for hope where there appeared only discouragement and wrath. The words of God, "Let Me alone," he understood not to forbid but to encourage intercession, implying that nothing but the prayers of Moses could save Israel, but that if thus entreated, God would spare His people. {PP 318.3}

Here the Lord proved Moses. He knew that it was a laborious and soul-trying work to lead that rebellious people through to the promised land. He would test the perseverance, faithfulness and love of Moses, for such an erring and ungrateful people. {1SP 245.1}

God had proved his servant, he had tested his faithfulness and his love for that erring, ungrateful people, and nobly had Moses endured the trial. . . God was pleased with his faithfulness, his simplicity of heart, and his integrity, and he committed to him, as a faithful shepherd, the great charge of leading Israel to the promised land. {RH, February 11, 1909 par. 8}

He loved his people better than himself, and in the very words, "Let me alone," he saw encouragement to hope that if God were earnestly importuned, he would spare the people. {YI, November 21, 1901 par. 8}

She clearly says God was testing, proving Moses. Which plainly means He did not intend to destroy Israel. Otherwise, if Moses had failed the test and God had destroyed Israel, it implies God would have raised up a nation through a man who failed the test of his faithfulness.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132298
04/02/11 08:12 PM
04/02/11 08:12 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Tom and APL, again I see we have reached an impasse. I cannot have a discussion where what I have said/linked is outrightly ignored so I won’t be commenting on your decided oblivious views on the “War in Heaven”. You all can read this SOP proof for yourselves whenever you feel like it. You all are, manifestly, “regalingly”, thinking that you are merely arguing against my view, however your are arguing against direct revelations and statements of the SOP. Suit yourselves. I cannot force you to click on a link.

In regards to God and His judgments, including the plague, you are a painting Him like a hypocritical Mafia don who feels guiltless and clean because he sent his capo soldiers out to do his dirty work and that simply by saying something disparaging and understood as an execution command to his captains or underboss.

The Bible is clear that God both directly execute judgements and also at times leaves this to the work of nature, peoples or directly Satan. Trying to “launder” the wrath of God clearly expressed in the Bible is implicitly claiming that God would have been doing something wrong, just like a judge sentencing someone to the electric chair or the officer one who flips that switch are doing something wrong.

And please, spare me the spurious quibbling, peripheral knit-picking. I don’t have time for that. And frankly it is like dealing with vexatious little children. (Take it as you surely will.) You all just prove that you only answer what you think you have an answer to but just wholly ignore whatever you can’t answer which disprove your view and of course never admit this. Having a discussion with people who are thus ‘still seeing a forest despite all of the felled trees’ is not at all worthwhile for me.

And my view of God is not eisogetical, but exegetical. Do these studies for yourselves. This GC is not and has not been a stoic and bloodless conflict, especially for God. So whether direct or indirect, God is ultimately responsible for all that has occurred and been allowed to occur in this world. (GC 35-37 is only one type of God’s destruction = the indirect one.) The operative issue is “why has He allowed this to be the case.”

Have you not also read...:
Originally Posted By: SOP
When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

...or is this fact to be “best-knowingly”, selectively, excised from the Biblical record to uphold your view of what God should really be like???

And Gen 3:22-24 along with the tangible water of life view is unequivocally clear to me. If God said it would happen, then I believe it over man’s rationalization simply you cannot accept that this could be the case. You all, particularly APL, are looking a natural answer, e.g, TE’s or even Satan injected-coding for something that is entirely “supernatural.” Instead this is were I now see and understand is the epicenter crux of the dividing and still open issue in this ongoing GC: i.e., 'why can’t people who choose not to observe God’s law, even only breaking one, even if replacing it with an alternative law, (= “good sinners”) be allowed to live.' Doesn’t EGW similarly say somewhere something in the line of: ‘whereas Satan priorly in the GC wanted to make such a point upon the entire Law, following the Cross, i.e, in the NT Church Age, he has instead focused that GC issue solely upon the (and seemingly arbitrary, as most Christian implicitly believe) Sabbath commandment!! Seems to me that the issue involving the other 9 commandments have been already demonstrated prior to the cross. As I see it, the last 6 by the time of the Flood, and the first 3 during especially the times of Ancient Israel, at least in the religious realm, i.e., without God’s help by making Him their God and respecting Him, other evil nations would route God’s professed people.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132299
04/02/11 08:14 PM
04/02/11 08:14 PM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
She clearly says God was testing, proving Moses. Which plainly means He did not intend to destroy Israel. Otherwise, if Moses had failed the test and God had destroyed Israel, it implies God would have raised up a nation through a man who failed the test of his faithfulness.


As I said, I see it that God instead, through indeed this testing, raised up a mercy option which was not there before because of the absence of an intercessor. And for this to be genuine. He had to veil it as He did. Then with now the option to pardon, whereas before he only had the option to destroy, God, through also the good points of Moses, chose to pardon Israel. Again a faithless nation is completely useless to God given the supernatural feats needed to establish this otherwise helpless and vulnerable nation of poor slaves. So this destruction would have just been an acceleration of what was sure to occur otherwise, (e.g.., surrounding nations coming against them and routing them), if such faithlessness persist or even because of this great unforgiven sin of the Golden Calf.

Notice also, as I previously stated that there was not divinely hinted opportunity for the sin on the borders of Canaan, and protracted judgement did follow, albeit only on the supposed-to-be responsible adults.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132301
04/03/11 01:15 AM
04/03/11 01:15 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
She clearly says God was testing, proving Moses. Which plainly means He did not intend to destroy Israel.


There are other incidents in Scripture where this very thing happened. For example, God looked for someone to repair the breach of the wall. If He had found someone, things could have been different. In Moses, He did find someone, and things were different.

Quote:
Otherwise, if Moses had failed the test and God had destroyed Israel, it implies God would have raised up a nation through a man who failed the test of his faithfulness.


It does imply that. But people have failed tests of faithfulness and gone on to be great followers of God, of which Abraham, the very father of the people whom were discussing, is an example.

The reason Israel wasn't destroyed was because of Moses' intercession. God wasn't kidding.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132302
04/03/11 01:40 AM
04/03/11 01:40 AM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
So whether direct or indirect, God is ultimately responsible for all that has occurred and been allowed to occur in this world. (GC 35-37 is only one type of God’s destruction = the indirect one.) The operative issue is “why has He allowed this to be the case.” & {GC 614.2}

...and it is readily seen that it is when God no longer desires to have mercy (e.g., with the “unmixed”/undiluted 7 Last Plagues) that He steps aside and let’s Satan have His way. OF course Satan follows through in order to take advantage of this “no mercy” green light, because if He does not, God will, though, “mercifully, do this indismissable judgement Himself, and Satan wants both people to hate God and also wants to take vengeance on God’s creation, especially since he now has nothing left to gain by continuing to pretend to be a well-wisher for these rebellious ones.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132303
04/03/11 01:43 AM
04/03/11 01:43 AM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,317
Western, USA
NJK - I suggest listening to a recording of a Sabbath School class on the book of Revelation, speaking about retribution. You can find it here: http://goo.gl/2yPSW.

As always, it is best to hear the whole thing. But starting around 35 or 36 minutes, speaking about the topic of retribution the speaker (Tonstad) speaks about doing the exegesis. He says has done it in his writings, and he will win the discussion based on exegesis - "narrowly". But you can't win the Great Controversy narrowly, you need to win it in a big way. And he is speaking of Friedrich Nietzsche, who was not a friend of Christianity. And I'll leave it there. Listen at your own risk, should you dare.


Last edited by APL; 04/03/11 02:49 AM. Reason: typo

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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