MM:Tom, there should be no doubt in your mind what I believe about the various points we've been discussing. Just in case this isn't the case, please do me a favor and summarize what you think I believe. Thank you.

Also, here's what I think you believe. Everyone knows the truth, therefore, there is no true atheist.

Jesus helps people who possess unsanctified human faculties to perform genuine, godly good works.

People experience rebirth practicing certain sinful habits because the Holy Spirit opted not to reveal them for fear they would refuse to embrace Jesus.

M: Tom, there should be no doubt in your mind what I believe about the various points we've been discussing. Just in case this isn't the case, please do me a favor and summarize what you think I believe. Thank you.

T: Ok, here's what I think. We started out talking about if a person could to good works without God's help. You said yes, I said no. You talked about atheists who did good works to counter my argument. In speaking about atheists you spoke of people who had heard Jesus presented in the best light but concluded that God does not exist.

I presented Romans 1 to you, and you were stuck. To get out of being stuck you came up with a theory that Paul was talking about people who had known the truth at one point in time, but later changed their minds, as this is the only way you could continue with the idea that you had.

Later you presented the idea that unsanctified people could not do good works, contradicting what you said earlier. I repeatedly pointed this out to you, but you've chosen not to address this point. Instead you started making statements and conclusions regarding what I thought about unsanctified people doing good works. I refused to make any comments regarding this, saying that I wanted to resolve the two points we had been discussing first, the two points being Romans 1 and whether a person could do good works apart from the help of God.

M: Also, here's what I think you believe. Everyone knows the truth, therefore, there is no true atheist.

T: This is a bit vague. What is "the truth"? What I have said is that what can be known of God is known by all because God Himself has shown them.

M: Jesus helps people who possess unsanctified human faculties to perform genuine, godly good works.

T: I have said over and over again that I've made no comment regarding this. You couldn't possibly know what I think about this, because I haven't said. I haven't even thought about it. You have absolutely no basis upon which to make any assertions regarding what I think about this.

M: People experience rebirth practicing certain sinful habits because the Holy Spirit opted not to reveal them for fear they would refuse to embrace Jesus.

T: I haven't said this either. I've said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this.

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of t[b][/b]he worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

M: Also, here's what I think you believe. Everyone knows the truth, therefore, there is no true atheist.

T: This is a bit vague. What is "the truth"? What I have said is that what can be known of God is known by all because God Himself has shown them.

M:But we’re talking about what Paul said about it, right?

He wrote about “men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” “They knew . . . that which may be known of God . . . even his eternal power and Godhead.” Is it too farfetched to assume that such people once held “the truth” faithfully, that at one time they, too, “believed and lived by faith”?

Please address the following questions about “men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”:

1. How did God reveal the truth to them?

2. Which truths are excluded in the phrase “that which may be known of God”?

3. Who were these men?

4. Were they justified?

5. Did they ever live in harmony with the truths God revealed to them?

6. Did they ever live by faith?

7. Are these the same men Paul describes in verses 19-32?

18For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.

19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.

20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)

21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. (Amplified)

M: Jesus helps people who possess unsanctified human faculties to perform genuine, godly good works.

T: I have said over and over again that I've made no comment regarding this. You couldn't possibly know what I think about this, because I haven't said. I haven't even thought about it. You have absolutely no basis upon which to make any assertions regarding what I think about this.

M:Will you ever address it?

Quote:
M: People experience rebirth practicing certain sinful habits because the Holy Spirit opted not to reveal them for fear they would refuse to embrace Jesus.

T: I haven't said this either. I've said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this.

M:But what about sinful habits and practices? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of t[b][/b]he worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

Which sinful habits and practices are excluded in the phrase "the old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up"?

Which sinless habits and practices are excluded in the phrase “those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ”?

M: Also, here's what I think you believe. Everyone knows the truth, therefore, there is no true atheist.

T: This is a bit vague. What is "the truth"? What I have said is that what can be known of God is known by all because God Himself has shown them.

M: But we’re talking about what Paul said about it, right?

T: Yes. This is what Paul said, that what can be known of God is known by all because God Himself has shown them.

M: He wrote about “men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” “They knew . . . that which may be known of God . . . even his eternal power and Godhead.” Is it too farfetched to assume that such people once held “the truth” faithfully, that at one time they, too, “believed and lived by faith”?

T: Yes. As I've pointed out a number of times, I've never seen this thought expressed. Anytime we have a thought which is unique, we should treat it with skepticism. Sure, it's possible that we've had some idea which is correct that no one has had in the history of man, but it's not likely that one of us is going to out of the blue come up with the correct interpretation of Romans that no scholar or writer has ever had.

M: Please address the following questions about “men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”:

1. How did God reveal the truth to them?

T: As stated in the passages, God has shown, etc.; through invisible things He has made, etc.

2. Which truths are excluded in the phrase “that which may be known of God”?

T: Explicitly, none. Truths were included, not excluded.

3. Who were these men?

T: The class of the disobedient.

4. Were they justified?

T: No, they are the class of the disobedient.

5. Did they ever live in harmony with the truths God revealed to them?

T: Could be either.

6. Did they ever live by faith?

T: Possibly yes and possibly no.

7. Are these the same men Paul describes in verses 19-32?

T: Paul is declaring a general truth, which is the following:


What's written here applies in general to all men. According to the SOP, Paul is addressing in particular the class of the disobedient. Of course, it doesn't make sense that only the disobedient know of God.

M: Jesus helps people who possess unsanctified human faculties to perform genuine, godly good works.

T: I have said over and over again that I've made no comment regarding this. You couldn't possibly know what I think about this, because I haven't said. I haven't even thought about it. You have absolutely no basis upon which to make any assertions regarding what I think about this.

M: Will you ever address it?

T: Yes, probably.

M: People experience rebirth practicing certain sinful habits because the Holy Spirit opted not to reveal them for fear they would refuse to embrace Jesus.

T: I haven't said this either. I've said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this.

M: But what about sinful habits and practices? Ellen wrote:


M: Which sinful habits and practices are excluded in the phrase "the old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up"? Which sinless habits and practices are excluded in the phrase “those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ”?

T: I said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this. That's correct, isn't it? I can think back on my own experience in regards to what wasn't revealed to me at the time of conversion. This was a long time ago, but something that comes to mind is saying things hurtful to others without being aware of it. Someone brought this to my attention, and I started trying to pay attention to this. Also I already provided you a list just recently. You can refer back to that.

MR No. 373 - Preparation for Baptism

The preparation for baptism is a matter that needs to be carefully considered. The new converts to the truth should be faithfully instructed in the plain, "Thus saith the Lord." The word of the Lord is to be read and explained to them point by point. {6MR 155.1}
All who enter upon the new life should understand, prior to their baptism, that the Lord requires the undivided affections. In the sermon on the mount are given most precious lessons from the lips of the great Teacher. He says, "no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Again he says, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The practicing of the truth is essential. The bearing of fruit testifies to the character of the tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The line of demarkation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep his commandments and those who love him not and disregard his precepts. There is need of a thorough conversion to the truth. We are not only to say, I believe, but to practice the truth. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart


-156-

genuine love for Christ, who gave himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, soul, body, and spirit. {6MR 155.2}
The question put to Christ by a lawyer was, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" There stood the wily priests and rulers expecting to hear from the lips of Christ an answer that would give them opportunity to condemn him. He who reads every heart as an open book understood their purpose. Turning to the lawyer, Christ said unto him, "What is written in the Law? how readest thou?" He gives him an opportunity to answer his own question. And the lawyer answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: This do, and thou shalt live." Christ will not accept a divided heart. The life of the receiver of truth should witness to the change wrought by the transformation of character. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord." Why? Because they have an indwelling Saviour, who works the mind and heart to reveal that love for Christ which leads them to do his will, not their own. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. {6MR 156.1}
There is need of a much more thorough preparation of the candidates for baptism than has been given them. Satan does not want any one to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the senses, so that true conversion may not take place. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This conformity to the mind and will of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit.


-157- {6MR 156.2}
Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}
"Thy sins be forgiven thee." These words are spoken to the repentant, believing soul. Wonderful Saviour! All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. True repentance will be shown to be sincere by producing fruit in good works. None can depend upon


-158-

their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character that we prove our connection with him. We cannot depend on any other one to do our work for us. We must perform our duties for ourselves. We must work the will of God, and delight to do his commandments. Then we shall not lean upon any one but Jesus Christ for support and efficiency. {6MR 157.2}
One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need faithful instruction is the subject of dress. In the examination of candidates for baptism this subject should not be lost sight of. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. True conversion of the heart will work wonderful changes in the outward appearance. {6MR 158.1}
There should be no carelessness in dress. Teach the young converts that dress is a talent. For Christ's sake, whose property we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before him. Thus we are taught that the Lord has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolical. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolical. In all things we are to be representatives of him. Good taste should be exercised in the selection of appropriate colors. Our dress should be tidy and well-fitting. The hair should be carefully arranged. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and


-159-

purity. But the word of God gives us no sanction in making changes in our apparel merely for the sake of fashion, that we may appear like the world. When the desire for display in dress absorbs the mind, vanity is manifested. All this must be put away. {6MR 158.2}
The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. The Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul says, "In like manner also, let women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." And through the apostle Peter the instruction is given, "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." {6MR 159.1}
Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array of expensive ornaments. All this display imparts no value to the character. The Lord desires every converted person to put away the idea that dressing as worldlings dress will give value to our influence. The ornamentation of the person with jewels and luxurious things is a species of idolatry. This needless display reveals a love for those things which are supposed to place a value upon the person. It gives evidence to the world of a heart destitute of the inward adornment. Expensive dress and adornments of jewelry give an incorrect representation of the truth that should always be represented as of the highest value. An overdressed, outwardly adorned person bears the sign of inward poverty. A lack of spirituality is revealed.


-160- {6MR 159.2}
Extravagance in dress requires the expenditure of means that is needed to advance the work of the Lord. Extra ribbons and bows mean pennies and shillings spent needlessly. The trimming of ladies' hats with high-standing bows is a needless expense, and it is unbecoming to a Christian. In the house of God the overtrimmed hats are a positive annoyance. The congregation desire to see the face of the speaker as well as to hear his voice; but the ladies' hats with their high-standing ribbons and bows, obscure the view. Many in the congregation may be seen peering this way and that to get a glimpse of the speaker; but often their efforts are in vain. Their enjoyment of the service is marred, and the minister, who observes all this, is disturbed. {6MR 160.1}
Satan has a snare laid to captivate unwary souls by leading them to give more attention to the outward adorning than to the inward graces which love of truth and righteousness display as the fruit borne upon the Christian tree. If the enemy can keep the minds of believers centered upon their dress and outward appearance, he is well pleased. They injure their influence, and the cause of truth which they profess to love. {6MR 160.2}
Many indulge a passion for dress. They spend their money for that which is not bread, and are as foolish as was Esau, who sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Many bar their own souls from entering the strait gate because they cannot indulge their love for display and yet believe in Christ and walk in his footsteps. {6MR 160.3}
"If any man will come after me," said Christ, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Self denial and self-sacrifice will mark the Christian's life. Evidence that the taste is really converted will be


-161-

seen in the dress of all who walk the narrow path of holiness, the path cast up for the ransomed of the Lord to walk in. {6MR 160.4}
Christians should not neglect to search the Scriptures on these points. They need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. Those who are earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired of God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. Their dress bears its testimony to their own family, to the church and the world, that they are being purified from vanity and selfishness. They demonstrate that they are not idolaters. {6MR 161.1}
Wherever the grace of humility, a meek and quiet spirit, is cherished, the whole person will express the same. The grace of Christ in the heart finds expression in a dignified, decorous deportment. The truth is manifest in the flesh. And truth lived always has an influence in favor of the truth, testifying of practical godliness. All such experiences are of the highest value. The usefulness of the Christian testifies to the genuineness of his conversion. {6MR 161.2}
As those who claim to believe the truth give expression to the truth in appropriate dress and in their words and conduct, they are living epistles for God, known and read by all who behold them. Their chaste conversation is a sign of the inward adorning. They have enlarged influence; a field of usefulness is ever open before them. They are as signs in the world, perpetuating a saving knowledge of divine truth, as salt that has not lost its savour.


-162- {6MR 161.3}
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,"--the same Word that was in the beginning with God, and was God. Through his own life in human nature, Christ has revealed to us his methods of usefulness in saving souls. His character is to be revealed in his followers. The reception of the great testing truths for these last days never makes the receiver coarse and rough and uncourteous, harsh in conversation and spirit. The truth genuinely believed is a reality to the receiver. It never degrades, but always refines, elevates, and ennobles the receiver. Through sanctification of the Spirit it makes him an agency through whom the unseen angels of God work out his holy principles. {6MR 162.1}
The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. Faithful, Christian men and women should have an intense interest to bring the convicted soul to a correct knowledge of righteousness in Christ Jesus. If any have allowed the desire of pleasure or the love of dress to become supreme, so that any portion of their mind, soul, and strength, is devoted to selfish indulgences, the faithful believers should watch for these souls as they that must give an account. They must not neglect the faithful, tender, loving instruction so essential to the young converts, that there may be no half-hearted work. The very first experiences should be right. If those who have been long in the way will try to help the one who is just beginning the Christian course, they will often be as the Lord's living agencies. All who will be true and faithful in the performance of their duty are representatives of Christ, the true Shepherd. If all realized the conflict which each soul must wage with Satanic agencies that


-163-

are seeking to ensnare and entice and deceive, there would be much more diligent labor done for those who are young in the faith. {6MR 162.2}
The atmosphere of the world is charged with spiritual malaria. All who accept of Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour must count themselves dead to all things in their life conduct that Christ would not approve. These newborn souls seldom have sufficient instruction. They are left too much to themselves, and are often tempted, and do not discern the evil of the temptation. Let these souls newly come to the faith feel that it is their privilege to solicit counsel. If they seek the society of those who can help them, they will soon possess the refined taste that will ever choose the company of those who love and fear God. Our conversation with these souls should be of a spiritual, encouraging character. The Lord marks the conflict of every weak, doubting, struggling soul, and he will help all who call upon him. They will see heaven open before them, and angels of God ascending and descending the ladder of shining brightness which they are trying to climb. {6MR 163.1}
After the believing soul has received the ordinance of baptism, he is to bear in mind that he is dedicated to God, to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit. These three all cooperate in the great work of the covenant made by baptism in the sight of the heavenly universe. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit receive the believing soul into covenant relation with God. {6MR 163.2}
All who study the life of Christ and practice his teaching will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. They are established in the faith, and will not be overcome by the devil because of vanity and pride. They seek to walk the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God. Their character exerts an influence that


-164-

tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of his work. {6MR 163.3}
By the reception of the doctrines revealed and the performance of the duties required in the word of God, the professed followers of Christ are to witness to the world of their unity with Christ. They are to show that they have been given to Christ by his Father, and are overcomers through the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. They love him who hath redeemed them. They increase in knowledge of Christ through exemplifying his character. And they cherish expectations that will not be disappointed: they expect to see his face and to rejoice in the sunshine of his countenance. {6MR 164.1}
In these thoroughly converted souls the world has a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. Through them Christ makes known to the world his character and will. In the lives of God's children is revealed the blessedness of serving the Lord, and the opposite is seen in those who do not keep his commandments. The line of demarkation is distinct. All who obey God's commandments are kept by his mighty power amid the corrupting influence of the transgressors of his law. From the lowliest subject to the highest in positions of trust, they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. {6MR 164.2}
In his prayer to the Father, Christ says of his followers, "The glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them as thou hast loved me." O what possibilities and probabilities are for God's people if they will humble themselves and exalt the Lord Jesus.


-165- {6MR 164.3}
In his prayer the Saviour says further, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." {6MR 165.1}
The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ expressed in character is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the very key that opens to us the portals of heaven, that we may obtain eternal life, an immortal inheritance, and eternal substance. All who have this knowledge are constantly advancing heavenward. They have a good report in their own family, in the church, and in the world.--Ms 56, 1900. ("Preparation for Baptism," typed August 12, 1900.) {6MR 165.2}
The principles of righteousness must be implanted in the soul. The faith must grasp the power of Jesus Christ, else there is no safety. Licentious practices are getting to be as common as in the days before the flood. Not one should be buried with Christ by baptism unless they are critically examined whether they have ceased to sin, whether they have fixed moral principles, whether they know what sin is, whether they have moral defilement which God abhors. Find out by close questioning if these persons are really ceasing to sin, if with David they can say, I hate sin with a perfect hatred.--Letter 26d, 1887, p. 6. (To "Brother Covert and those who hold responsible positions in the Indiana Conference," September 27, 1887.)


-166- {6MR 165.3}
My burden is that ministers of the gospel shall preach the truth as to what constitutes true conversion. They are not to lead down into the water souls who are not converted. The church is becoming composed of men and women who have never realized how sinful sin is.--Letter 134, 1899, p. 5. (To "Dear Brethren in America," September 8, 1899). {6MR 166.1}
Those who have taken part in the solemn rite of baptism have pledged themselves to seek for those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. They have pledged themselves to labor earnestly for the saving of sinners. God asks those who name his name, How are you using the powers that have been redeemed by the death of my Son? Are you doing all in your power to rise to a greater height in spiritual understanding? Are you adjusting your interests and actions in accordance with the momentous claims of eternity?--Ms 63, 1901, p. 8. (Diary, April 30, 1901). {6MR 166.2}
No one is to take part in the solemn ordinance of baptism without giving the subject careful, prayerful thought. The candidates, and especially the youth, are to be carefully instructed in regard to the obligations they assume in taking this step. They pledge themselves to devote their lives to God's service; and the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them.--Ms 118, 1902, pp. 1, 2. ("Christ's Method of Imparting Truth," October 6, 1902).


-167- {6MR 166.3}
The world has no claim to our service; for by a solemn, holy covenant we accepted God's badge of service at the time of our baptism. On that occasion we pledged ourselves, in the presence of the three great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate.--Ms 130, 1902, p. 4. (Diary, October 27, 1902). {6MR 167.1}
In receiving baptism, the human agent, inspired with new purposes, pledges himself to die to the world and live in obedience to Christ. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost supply the power that makes him victorious in every conflict with the prince of darkness.--Letter 200, 1902, p. 7. (To Brother and Sister Kress, December 15, 1902). {6MR 167.2}
Our churches are becoming enfeebled by receiving for doctrines the commandments of men. Many are received into the church who are not converted. Men, women, and children are allowed to take part in the solemn rite of baptism without being fully instructed in regard to the meaning of this ordinance. Participation in this ordinance means much, and our ministers should be careful to give each candidate plain instruction in regard to its meaning and its solemnity.--Ms 10, 1905, p. 4. ("Non-essential Subjects to Be Avoided," September 12, 1904.)

Released August 13, 1974. {6MR 167.3}

T: Yes. As I've pointed out a number of times, I've never seen this thought expressed. Anytime we have a thought which is unique, we should treat it with skepticism. Sure, it's possible that we've had some idea which is correct that no one has had in the history of man, but it's not likely that one of us is going to out of the blue come up with the correct interpretation of Romans that no scholar or writer has ever had.

M:Obviously there is nothing new about people embracing the truth and then backsliding. The idea that Paul described “men who held the truth in unrighteousness, men who know that which may be known of God, even his eternal power and Godhead" but who never once held “the truth” faithfully, who never once “believed and lived by faith” - well, this idea seems very unlikely to me.

T: As stated in the passages, God has shown, etc.; through invisible things He has made, etc.

Etc? Besides through nature, how else did Paul say God revealed the truth to them?

2. Which truths are excluded in the phrase “that which may be known of God”?

T: Explicitly, none. Truths were included, not excluded.

M:Does "that which may be known of God” imply they knew the truth about the 10Cs?

If so, how did they glean all that from observing nature?

3. Who were these men?

T: The class of the disobedient.

M:Jews and Gentiles?

4. Were they justified?

T: No, they are the class of the disobedient.

M:Is it possible they once were justified and then backslid later on? Or, does Paul's choice of words emphatically disallow this possibility?

5. Did they ever live in harmony with the truths God revealed to them?

T: Could be either.

M:I believe they did. What did Paul say that makes you think they might have (as opposed to might not have)?

6. Did they ever live by faith?

T: Possibly yes and possibly no.

M:I believe they did. What did Paul say that makes you think they might have (as opposed to might not have)?

7. Are these the same men Paul describes in verses 19-32?

T: Paul is declaring a general truth, which is the following:

Quote:
18For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.

19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.

20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)

21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. (Amplified)

What's written here applies in general to all men. According to the SOP, Paul is addressing in particular the class of the disobedient. Of course, it doesn't make sense that only the disobedient know of God.

M:Is Paul talking about the “men who hold the truth in unrighteousness” all the way through verse 32?

Or, do you think he switched to people in general in verse 20?

The reason I ask is if Paul switched in verse 20 it leaves us not knowing how the “men who hold the truth in unrighteousness” acquired knowledge of the truth. Were they backslidden Jews?

If so, can we assume they grew up learning the truth through Bible study and prayer? The same thing must be determined about the people Paul describes in verses 20-32, that is, how did they obtain knowledge of the truth? Were they Gentiles? If so, can we assume they grew up learning the truth through observing nature?

what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him

M: Jesus helps people who possess unsanctified human faculties to perform genuine, godly good works.

T: I have said over and over again that I've made no comment regarding this. You couldn't possibly know what I think about this, because I haven't said. I haven't even thought about it. You have absolutely no basis upon which to make any assertions regarding what I think about this.

M: Will you ever address it?

T: Yes, probably.

M:Is it time yet?

M: Which sinful habits and practices are excluded in the phrase "the old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up"? Which sinless habits and practices are excluded in the phrase “those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ”?

T: I said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this. That's correct, isn't it? I can think back on my own experience in regards to what wasn't revealed to me at the time of conversion. This was a long time ago, but something that comes to mind is saying things hurtful to others without being aware of it. Someone brought this to my attention, and I started trying to pay attention to this. Also I already provided you a list just recently. You can refer back to that.

M:Actually, I believe “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” {SC 29.1}

Ellen often wrote about people who fail to experience a genuine, thorough conversion. Sometimes she blames it on the minister, and other times she blames it on the person. Are you aware of those kinds of passages? In the following passage she goes into great detail about it: ...


Does the passage above described the preparation you received prior to baptism?

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his....

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8)

1.I stated that a person can only do good works by God's assistance.

2.You argued against this idea.

3.You produced a statement from the SOP stating that man cannot do good works apart from an outside power.

This agrees with what I was asserting!