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Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #133259
05/05/11 03:04 PM
05/05/11 03:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: I believe the passages you posted above make it clear the Holy Spirit plays a significant part in helping us to discern the difference between truth and lies. He works in concert with godly people who share the truth with us. And, of course, He works with us as we search the scriptures for truth. The “unction” and “anointing” that abides within us is the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is spiritual “eyesalve” and enables us, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to understand the truth.

T: It also points out that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God. It took so long to get an answer to this question, I can't even remember why I was asking it.

M: I don’t see how you can say the passage above describes your experience at rebirth when you testified you experienced rebirth before the Holy Spirit made “every spot of defilement painfully distinct” and laid “bare the deformity and defects” of your character and made “apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips” and “acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God.”

T: I addressed this in what I wrote.

M: Was your spirit “stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God” and did you “loathe” yourself as you viewed “the pure, spotless character of Christ”?

T: Of course. I've explained this. I also referenced "Pilgram's Progress." I don't know if you're familiar with this or not, however, but it describes the same process. This isn't a one time thing either. That is, as we continue our walk with Christ, the Holy Spirit continues to reveal “the pure, spotless character of Christ” to us, which continues to cause our spirit to be " “stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God."

M: Also, do you think in Jesus' explanation of rebirth to Nicodemus that He had in mind people nowadays who experience rebirth before they learn the truth about the Sabbath? If so, why didn't Nicodemus object?

T: I don't think this is relevant.

M: It’s relevant to me. Please answer the question. Thank you.

T: I think Christ had Nicodemus in mind, not people nowadays. What would Nicodmus object to? I don't know what you're asking there. Why do you think whether people nowadays keep the Sabbath is relevant to Christ's conversation with Nicodemus?

M: I believe the idea that Jesus described rebirth [to Nicodemus] taking place before learning the truth about basic doctrines such as diet and Sabbath-keeping is absurd.

T: Really?

M: Absolutely. Is there any contextual evidence to the contrary?

T: Yes. Nothing like this was suggested. It also doesn't tie into anything Christ actually said.

M: I'm not saying that's what you believe.

T: You're saying that before a person can be converted, the need to know the truth about such basic doctrines as diet and Sabbath-keeping? I think that idea's absurd. Hopefully we're just having a misunderstanding of what each other means here. I thought you said before that a person could be converted without knowing about the Sabbath. The passage from SC 29 doesn't talk about keeping the Sabbath, but of being convicted of sin, and seeing one's need for Christ.

M: Please keep in mind, as we discuss this point, that I believe there is a difference between experiencing rebirth and converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.

T: Are you contrasting two things here, or three?

M: In His description to Nicodemus, Jesus made it clear people must consent to baptism by water and the Spirit before they can enter the kingdom of God. Baptism by water symbolizes the fact people have crucified self, have experienced rebirth, and have consented to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. The Bible portrays baptismal candidates experiencing rebirth and conversion simultaneously. As I said earlier, nowhere in the Bible does it describe people consenting to baptism before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree? If not, please post passages that teach otherwise.

T: I think you're confusing, or conflating might be a better word, two different things. There is an internal work, and an external work. The internal work of conversion involves the following: “The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176) One is converted, or born again, when one accepts Christ. This is independent of dress or Sabbath. One does not need to eat a certain way to be converted, nor even keep the Sabbath. The other thing is a public proclamation of what one has experienced. Is it your position that a person eating pork can't be converted?

M: Having said this, please understand that I also believe people nowadays do in reality experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

T: It seems like you're contradicting yourself.

Again, most people nowadays experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. However, nowhere in the Bible does it describe rebirth and baptism happening before people learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree? If not, please post biblical passages that teach otherwise.

For the purposes of discussion please bear in mind the following definitions: 1) “rebirth” applies to people who confess and crucify the sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit reveals to them, and 2) “converted” applies to people who learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. In some cases, people experience rebirth and conversion simultaneously. The Bible describes it this way. Nowadays it happens when people study with qualified SDAs. Ellen describes it in the MR 373 quote posted in my last post. I realize sometimes the words “conversion” and “converted” are used to describe people who experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

Quote:
M: Another question. You and I both believe “that which may be known of God is manifest” to everyone “for God hath showed it unto them . . . even his eternal power and Godhead . . . knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death.” I believe everyone is born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments and that this knowledge is confirmed as the Holy Spirit works to draw them to Jesus.

T: Why do you believe this about the last 6 commandments? Why do you exclude the other commandments? I can see excluding the Sabbath, but why the others? Why would a person have an instinctive knowledge that one should be formally married, but not that one shouldn't worship idols?

M: You, on the other hand, seem to think “that which may be known of God” may not include the 10Cs.

T: I don't know what you mean here. I haven't said anything about the 10Cs in this context. "That which may be know of God" is stated by Paul. He doesn't say anything about the 10Cs. He speaks of God's power, evident from the things He has made, and that people should be thankful to Him and glorify Him.

M: Doesn’t this imply that in judgment they would have an excuse for certain sinful habits and practices? That is, if they didn’t know, how can Jesus hold them accountable in judgment?

T: I'm sure they do have an excuse for certain sinful habits and practices. They'll only be held accountable for that which they know.

The people Paul described were fully aware that the long list of sins Paul named will land those who commit them in the lake of fire if they refuse to embrace Jesus as their personal Savior. Here’s Paul’s list of sins:

Quote:
Romans
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You wrote, “I'm sure they do have an excuse for certain sinful habits and practices. They'll only be held accountable for that which they know.” Did Paul leave out any sins that people who know “that which may be know of God" can commit and excuse during final judgment?

Also, what other sins, not specifically named above, are included in Paul's phrase “and such like”?

Quote:
M: A representative sin would be, for example, impatience. A specific sin would be, for example, being impatient when your child doesn't obey immediately.

T: Being impatient when your child doesn't obey immediately is a representative sin of every other like sin (i.e., every other time when you were impatient with your child). The Holy Spirit would not need to convict a person of each such incident. One particular instance which pricks the conscience is enough. If a person committed tens or hundreds of thousands of sins, or millions of sins, it wouldn't make any sense for the Holy Spirit to reveal all of these at once. The human mind wouldn't be able to grasp all of this. We're very poor at multitasking. Indeed, scientists say we don't really multitask at all, but shift our attention from one thing to another, which is a reason that using a cell phone while driving is dangerous. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ, revealing to us certain representative sins. We are drawn to Christ, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. His goodness contrasts with our badness, and we are led to repentance, which is what is needed.

M: As I said, the Holy Spirit reveals to people, in light of the cross, all their sinful habits and practices. He leaves none of their sinful habits and practices unrevealed because He fears they may be blown away and reject Jesus.

T: It's not that God is afraid that people would reject Jesus, but there's only so much a person can handle at a given time. For example, say a person is addicted to drugs or alcohol. That's the big problem. The person commits to Christ, and the person is delivered from that addiction. It man not be for quite some time that the person is concerned about smoking, for example. Actually smoking wasn't widely considered a sinful habit until relatively recently. If not keeping Sabbath is considered a sinful habit, that's another example of something not revealed right away.

M: The Holy Spirit also impresses them to confess specific sins, that is, specific instances of lying, cheating, stealing, etc. And, as mentioned earlier, in cases where people experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, the Holy Spirit chooses not to reveal to them essential truths like the Sabbath, diet and dress reform, the state of dead, the sanctuary, the mark of the beast, etc.

T: Ok, these are good examples, but there are other things that can come into play here. There are things that a person, at the time of conversion, is not convicted is a sin, but later becomes convicted. One doesn't learn everything there is to know about what constitutes sin at the time of conversion.

Again, where in the Bible does it describe 1) rebirth and 2) converting to living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded happening at two different times?

Also, which of the sins in Paul’s list above does the Holy Spirit choose not to reveal to people nowadays because He knows giving them up would be more than they could handle before experiencing rebirth?

By the way, do you believe people can experience rebirth if they understand and refuse to be baptized?

Do you believe people who studied with a qualified SDA (someone who upholds the 28 fundamental beliefs and follows Ellen’s counsel in MR 373), who learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, can still practice certain sinful habits without realizing they are sinning?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #133309
05/06/11 09:06 PM
05/06/11 09:06 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Again, most people nowadays experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. However, nowhere in the Bible does it describe rebirth and baptism happening before people learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree? If not, please post biblical passages that teach otherwise.


The subject isn't discussed, so it doesn't seem like a fair question. The Gentile who was baptized in Acts seems like it might be a good counter-example.

Also when you say "everything that Jesus commanded," what do you have in mind?

Quote:
For the purposes of discussion please bear in mind the following definitions: 1) “rebirth” applies to people who confess and crucify the sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit reveals to them,


This isn't a good definition of "rebirth." This is more of a description of the characteristics of born again people.

Quote:
and 2) “converted” applies to people who learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.


"Born again" and "converted" are used identically by the SOP. If you disagree, please demonstrate how she uses these terms differently.

Quote:
In some cases, people experience rebirth and conversion simultaneously.


Since they're the same thing, yes.

Quote:
The Bible describes it this way. Nowadays it happens when people study with qualified SDAs.


For a small percent of people.

Quote:
Ellen describes it in the MR 373 quote posted in my last post.


The one talking about baptism? I'm sure she's not talking about being converted in general (or, to use the synonym, born again).

Quote:
I realize sometimes the words “conversion” and “converted” are used to describe people who experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.


"Conversion" and "converted" mean the same thing as "born again," and refer to this process:

Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)


Here are the steps:

1.The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.
2.If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.
3.Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

Step 3 is when the person is "born again," which is indicated by the phrase "a new life in the soul."

Quote:
The people Paul described were fully aware that the long list of sins Paul named will land those who commit them in the lake of fire if they refuse to embrace Jesus as their personal Savior. Here’s Paul’s list of sins:

Quote:
Romans
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You wrote, “I'm sure they do have an excuse for certain sinful habits and practices. They'll only be held accountable for that which they know.” Did Paul leave out any sins that people who know “that which may be know of God" can commit and excuse during final judgment?

Also, what other sins, not specifically named above, are included in Paul's phrase “and such like”?


I disagree with the way you seem to be thinking of this. Paul's list is not a list of sins for people to think of in terms of things they can't do if they are to be born again. Rather Paul is describing the characteristics of a converted person.

Quote:
M: The Holy Spirit also impresses them to confess specific sins, that is, specific instances of lying, cheating, stealing, etc. And, as mentioned earlier, in cases where people experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, the Holy Spirit chooses not to reveal to them essential truths like the Sabbath, diet and dress reform, the state of dead, the sanctuary, the mark of the beast, etc.


This can be described more simply. The Holy Spirit impresses the person in question with certain sins of which that person is already aware are wrong.

Quote:
T: Ok, these are good examples, but there are other things that can come into play here. There are things that a person, at the time of conversion, is not convicted is a sin, but later becomes convicted. One doesn't learn everything there is to know about what constitutes sin at the time of conversion.

M:Again, where in the Bible does it describe 1) rebirth and 2) converting to living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded happening at two different times?


I don't think this question makes sense. The Bible doesn't speak in these terms.

Quote:
Also, which of the sins in Paul’s list above does the Holy Spirit choose not to reveal to people nowadays because He knows giving them up would be more than they could handle before experiencing rebirth?


I don't believe this is not the issue. I've described the issue repeatedly, so won't repeat myself.

Quote:
By the way, do you believe people can experience rebirth if they understand and refuse to be baptized?


If a person is convinced something is right (or wrong), and refuses to do it (or not do it), that would seem to indicate that a full surrender to the Holy Spirit has not taken place, which is a condition of conversion.

Quote:
Do you believe people who studied with a qualified SDA (someone who upholds the 28 fundamental beliefs and follows Ellen’s counsel in MR 373), who learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, can still practice certain sinful habits without realizing they are sinning?


Yes. I don't believe in instant perfection.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #133315
05/07/11 03:12 AM
05/07/11 03:12 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Tom, for your convenience here's the long passage you omitted:

Quote:
MR No. 373 - Preparation for Baptism

The preparation for baptism is a matter that needs to be carefully considered. The new converts to the truth should be faithfully instructed in the plain, "Thus saith the Lord." The word of the Lord is to be read and explained to them point by point. {6MR 155.1}

All who enter upon the new life should understand, prior to their baptism, that the Lord requires the undivided affections. In the sermon on the mount are given most precious lessons from the lips of the great Teacher. He says, "no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Again he says, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The practicing of the truth is essential. The bearing of fruit testifies to the character of the tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The line of demarkation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep his commandments and those who love him not and disregard his precepts. There is need of a thorough conversion to the truth. We are not only to say, I believe, but to practice the truth. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart genuine love for Christ, who gave himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, soul, body, and spirit. {6MR 155.2}

The question put to Christ by a lawyer was, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" There stood the wily priests and rulers expecting to hear from the lips of Christ an answer that would give them opportunity to condemn him. He who reads every heart as an open book understood their purpose. Turning to the lawyer, Christ said unto him, "What is written in the Law? how readest thou?" He gives him an opportunity to answer his own question. And the lawyer answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: This do, and thou shalt live." Christ will not accept a divided heart. The life of the receiver of truth should witness to the change wrought by the transformation of character. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord." Why? Because they have an indwelling Saviour, who works the mind and heart to reveal that love for Christ which leads them to do his will, not their own. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. {6MR 156.1}

There is need of a much more thorough preparation of the candidates for baptism than has been given them. Satan does not want any one to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the senses, so that true conversion may not take place. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This conformity to the mind and will of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit. {6MR 156.2}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}

"Thy sins be forgiven thee." These words are spoken to the repentant, believing soul. Wonderful Saviour! All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. True repentance will be shown to be sincere by producing fruit in good works. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character that we prove our connection with him. We cannot depend on any other one to do our work for us. We must perform our duties for ourselves. We must work the will of God, and delight to do his commandments. Then we shall not lean upon any one but Jesus Christ for support and efficiency. {6MR 157.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need faithful instruction is the subject of dress. In the examination of candidates for baptism this subject should not be lost sight of. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. True conversion of the heart will work wonderful changes in the outward appearance. {6MR 158.1}

There should be no carelessness in dress. Teach the young converts that dress is a talent. For Christ's sake, whose property we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before him. Thus we are taught that the Lord has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolical. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolical. In all things we are to be representatives of him. Good taste should be exercised in the selection of appropriate colors. Our dress should be tidy and well-fitting. The hair should be carefully arranged. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the word of God gives us no sanction in making changes in our apparel merely for the sake of fashion, that we may appear like the world. When the desire for display in dress absorbs the mind, vanity is manifested. All this must be put away. {6MR 158.2}

The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. The Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul says, "In like manner also, let women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." And through the apostle Peter the instruction is given, "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." {6MR 159.1}

Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array of expensive ornaments. All this display imparts no value to the character. The Lord desires every converted person to put away the idea that dressing as worldlings dress will give value to our influence. The ornamentation of the person with jewels and luxurious things is a species of idolatry. This needless display reveals a love for those things which are supposed to place a value upon the person. It gives evidence to the world of a heart destitute of the inward adornment. Expensive dress and adornments of jewelry give an incorrect representation of the truth that should always be represented as of the highest value. An overdressed, outwardly adorned person bears the sign of inward poverty. A lack of spirituality is revealed. {6MR 159.2}

Extravagance in dress requires the expenditure of means that is needed to advance the work of the Lord. Extra ribbons and bows mean pennies and shillings spent needlessly. The trimming of ladies' hats with high-standing bows is a needless expense, and it is unbecoming to a Christian. In the house of God the overtrimmed hats are a positive annoyance. The congregation desire to see the face of the speaker as well as to hear his voice; but the ladies' hats with their high-standing ribbons and bows, obscure the view. Many in the congregation may be seen peering this way and that to get a glimpse of the speaker; but often their efforts are in vain. Their enjoyment of the service is marred, and the minister, who observes all this, is disturbed. {6MR 160.1}

Satan has a snare laid to captivate unwary souls by leading them to give more attention to the outward adorning than to the inward graces which love of truth and righteousness display as the fruit borne upon the Christian tree. If the enemy can keep the minds of believers centered upon their dress and outward appearance, he is well pleased. They injure their influence, and the cause of truth which they profess to love. {6MR 160.2}

Many indulge a passion for dress. They spend their money for that which is not bread, and are as foolish as was Esau, who sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Many bar their own souls from entering the strait gate because they cannot indulge their love for display and yet believe in Christ and walk in his footsteps. {6MR 160.3}

"If any man will come after me," said Christ, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Self denial and self-sacrifice will mark the Christian's life. Evidence that the taste is really converted will be seen in the dress of all who walk the narrow path of holiness, the path cast up for the ransomed of the Lord to walk in. {6MR 160.4}

Christians should not neglect to search the Scriptures on these points. They need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. Those who are earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired of God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. Their dress bears its testimony to their own family, to the church and the world, that they are being purified from vanity and selfishness. They demonstrate that they are not idolaters. {6MR 161.1}

Wherever the grace of humility, a meek and quiet spirit, is cherished, the whole person will express the same. The grace of Christ in the heart finds expression in a dignified, decorous deportment. The truth is manifest in the flesh. And truth lived always has an influence in favor of the truth, testifying of practical godliness. All such experiences are of the highest value. The usefulness of the Christian testifies to the genuineness of his conversion. {6MR 161.2}

As those who claim to believe the truth give expression to the truth in appropriate dress and in their words and conduct, they are living epistles for God, known and read by all who behold them. Their chaste conversation is a sign of the inward adorning. They have enlarged influence; a field of usefulness is ever open before them. They are as signs in the world, perpetuating a saving knowledge of divine truth, as salt that has not lost its savour. {6MR 161.3}

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,"--the same Word that was in the beginning with God, and was God. Through his own life in human nature, Christ has revealed to us his methods of usefulness in saving souls. His character is to be revealed in his followers. The reception of the great testing truths for these last days never makes the receiver coarse and rough and uncourteous, harsh in conversation and spirit. The truth genuinely believed is a reality to the receiver. It never degrades, but always refines, elevates, and ennobles the receiver. Through sanctification of the Spirit it makes him an agency through whom the unseen angels of God work out his holy principles. {6MR 162.1}

The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. Faithful, Christian men and women should have an intense interest to bring the convicted soul to a correct knowledge of righteousness in Christ Jesus. If any have allowed the desire of pleasure or the love of dress to become supreme, so that any portion of their mind, soul, and strength, is devoted to selfish indulgences, the faithful believers should watch for these souls as they that must give an account. They must not neglect the faithful, tender, loving instruction so essential to the young converts, that there may be no half-hearted work. The very first experiences should be right. If those who have been long in the way will try to help the one who is just beginning the Christian course, they will often be as the Lord's living agencies. All who will be true and faithful in the performance of their duty are representatives of Christ, the true Shepherd. If all realized the conflict which each soul must wage with Satanic agencies that are seeking to ensnare and entice and deceive, there would be much more diligent labor done for those who are young in the faith. {6MR 162.2}

The atmosphere of the world is charged with spiritual malaria. All who accept of Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour must count themselves dead to all things in their life conduct that Christ would not approve. These newborn souls seldom have sufficient instruction. They are left too much to themselves, and are often tempted, and do not discern the evil of the temptation. Let these souls newly come to the faith feel that it is their privilege to solicit counsel. If they seek the society of those who can help them, they will soon possess the refined taste that will ever choose the company of those who love and fear God. Our conversation with these souls should be of a spiritual, encouraging character. The Lord marks the conflict of every weak, doubting, struggling soul, and he will help all who call upon him. They will see heaven open before them, and angels of God ascending and descending the ladder of shining brightness which they are trying to climb. {6MR 163.1}

After the believing soul has received the ordinance of baptism, he is to bear in mind that he is dedicated to God, to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit. These three all cooperate in the great work of the covenant made by baptism in the sight of the heavenly universe. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit receive the believing soul into covenant relation with God. {6MR 163.2}

All who study the life of Christ and practice his teaching will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. They are established in the faith, and will not be overcome by the devil because of vanity and pride. They seek to walk the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God. Their character exerts an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of his work. {6MR 163.3}

By the reception of the doctrines revealed and the performance of the duties required in the word of God, the professed followers of Christ are to witness to the world of their unity with Christ. They are to show that they have been given to Christ by his Father, and are overcomers through the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. They love him who hath redeemed them. They increase in knowledge of Christ through exemplifying his character. And they cherish expectations that will not be disappointed: they expect to see his face and to rejoice in the sunshine of his countenance. {6MR 164.1}

In these thoroughly converted souls the world has a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. Through them Christ makes known to the world his character and will. In the lives of God's children is revealed the blessedness of serving the Lord, and the opposite is seen in those who do not keep his commandments. The line of demarkation is distinct. All who obey God's commandments are kept by his mighty power amid the corrupting influence of the transgressors of his law. From the lowliest subject to the highest in positions of trust, they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. {6MR 164.2}

In his prayer to the Father, Christ says of his followers, "The glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them as thou hast loved me." O what possibilities and probabilities are for God's people if they will humble themselves and exalt the Lord Jesus. {6MR 164.3}

In his prayer the Saviour says further, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." {6MR 165.1}

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ expressed in character is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the very key that opens to us the portals of heaven, that we may obtain eternal life, an immortal inheritance, and eternal substance. All who have this knowledge are constantly advancing heavenward. They have a good report in their own family, in the church, and in the world.--Ms 56, 1900. ("Preparation for Baptism," typed August 12, 1900.) {6MR 165.2}

The principles of righteousness must be implanted in the soul. The faith must grasp the power of Jesus Christ, else there is no safety. Licentious practices are getting to be as common as in the days before the flood. Not one should be buried with Christ by baptism unless they are critically examined whether they have ceased to sin, whether they have fixed moral principles, whether they know what sin is, whether they have moral defilement which God abhors. Find out by close questioning if these persons are really ceasing to sin, if with David they can say, I hate sin with a perfect hatred.--Letter 26d, 1887, p. 6. (To "Brother Covert and those who hold responsible positions in the Indiana Conference," September 27, 1887.) {6MR 165.3}

My burden is that ministers of the gospel shall preach the truth as to what constitutes true conversion. They are not to lead down into the water souls who are not converted. The church is becoming composed of men and women who have never realized how sinful sin is.--Letter 134, 1899, p. 5. (To "Dear Brethren in America," September 8, 1899). {6MR 166.1}

Those who have taken part in the solemn rite of baptism have pledged themselves to seek for those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. They have pledged themselves to labor earnestly for the saving of sinners. God asks those who name his name, How are you using the powers that have been redeemed by the death of my Son? Are you doing all in your power to rise to a greater height in spiritual understanding? Are you adjusting your interests and actions in accordance with the momentous claims of eternity?--Ms 63, 1901, p. 8. (Diary, April 30, 1901). {6MR 166.2}

No one is to take part in the solemn ordinance of baptism without giving the subject careful, prayerful thought. The candidates, and especially the youth, are to be carefully instructed in regard to the obligations they assume in taking this step. They pledge themselves to devote their lives to God's service; and the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them.--Ms 118, 1902, pp. 1, 2. ("Christ's Method of Imparting Truth," October 6, 1902). {6MR 166.3}

The world has no claim to our service; for by a solemn, holy covenant we accepted God's badge of service at the time of our baptism. On that occasion we pledged ourselves, in the presence of the three great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate.--Ms 130, 1902, p. 4. (Diary, October 27, 1902). {6MR 167.1}

In receiving baptism, the human agent, inspired with new purposes, pledges himself to die to the world and live in obedience to Christ. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost supply the power that makes him victorious in every conflict with the prince of darkness.--Letter 200, 1902, p. 7. (To Brother and Sister Kress, December 15, 1902). {6MR 167.2}

Our churches are becoming enfeebled by receiving for doctrines the commandments of men. Many are received into the church who are not converted. Men, women, and children are allowed to take part in the solemn rite of baptism without being fully instructed in regard to the meaning of this ordinance. Participation in this ordinance means much, and our ministers should be careful to give each candidate plain instruction in regard to its meaning and its solemnity.--Ms 10, 1905, p. 4. ("Non-essential Subjects to Be Avoided," September 12, 1904.)

Released August 13, 1974. {6MR 167.3}

Again, does this describe the preparation you received before you experienced rebirth?


This says, "Preparation for baptism." When I was converted, I wasn't prepared for baptism.

I don't understand why you're still asking this. Haven't I answered this a couple of times? I also don't understand why you're quoting from a section which says, "Preparation for Baptism," and asking me about an event which is not baptism.

Jesus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." You seem to be separating rebirth and baptism in a way which means newborn believers cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #133316
05/07/11 03:28 AM
05/07/11 03:28 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Quote:
M: Do you believe people who studied with a qualified SDA (someone who upholds the 28 fundamental beliefs and follows Ellen’s counsel in MR 373), who learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, can still practice certain sinful habits without realizing they are sinning?

T: Yes. I don't believe in instant perfection.

Please name examples of sinful habits such people commit without realizing it.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #133317
05/07/11 04:59 AM
05/07/11 04:59 AM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
Jesus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." You seem to be separating rebirth and baptism in a way which means newborn believers cannot enter the kingdom of God.


I've got no idea what you're trying to say here. Of course newborn believers can enter the kingdom of God. What have I said that would imply they cannot?

Quote:
M: Do you believe people who studied with a qualified SDA (someone who upholds the 28 fundamental beliefs and follows Ellen’s counsel in MR 373), who learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, can still practice certain sinful habits without realizing they are sinning?

T: Yes. I don't believe in instant perfection.

M:Please name examples of sinful habits such people commit without realizing it.


You've asked this many times, and I've answered it many times. I've probably answered this question 2 dozen different times. I compiled a list for you. Why don't you keep track of the answers instead of re-asking the same questions that have been asked and answered so many times?

Any sin which a person commits which he is not aware is a sin would qualify. You have a theory, which I don't know what it's based on, that everybody instinctively knows the last six commandments. People don't even know how to swim by instinct. People have to learn almost everything, but even if we disallowed, for the sake of argument, disobedience to the last six commandments, that would still leave the first four. If you don't think these are known by instinct, then these would be possibilities, right?

As I stated, I think you're whole way of thinking about this is wrong. You're looking at behavior in terms of the keeping of rules, as I perceive things, and thinking that this is what is important. What I believe is important is one's heart, and if one's heart is right, one will follow Christ and obey, to the best of one's knowledge. But one's knowledge may be imperfect. One doesn't know all there is to following Christ in an instant. And as one matures, things which wouldn't have even been thought of earlier will strike one as sin.

Say there's a person X, and X here's the Gospel, and gives his life to Christ. Are you think such a person:

A.Is not converted, even though he's given his life to Christ.
B.Is not born again, even though he's given his life to Christ.
C.Is converted/born again, because he's given his life to Christ, and has instantly become perfect, not sinning in any way (excepting dress, diet, and Sabbath), not just in the sense of known sins, but unknown sins as well (excluding the things mentioned).

or something else?



Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #133336
05/07/11 03:22 PM
05/07/11 03:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
T: When I was converted, I wasn't prepared for baptism.

M: Jesus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." You seem to be separating rebirth and baptism in a way which means newborn believers cannot enter the kingdom of God.

T: I've got no idea what you're trying to say here. Of course newborn believers can enter the kingdom of God. What have I said that would imply they cannot?

You wrote, "When I was converted, I wasn't prepared for baptism." I assumed you believe people who are reborn or converted are qualified to enter the kingdom of God. From this assumption I deduced you believe people experience rebirth or conversion before they are qualified to be baptized. As you know, Jesus made it clear no one will enter the kingdom of God without being baptized. And to be baptized they must first be prepared and qualified. Jesus also made it clear that qualification for baptism includes learning how to live in harmony with “all things whatsoever” Jesus commanded.

Do you agree with Ellen’s view in MR 373 (the long passage posted above and omitted by you) of what Jesus requires of baptismal candidates prior to receiving the ordinance of baptism?

Are people born again in basically the same sinful state they were in before experiencing rebirth and then they begin a gradual process of discovering and eliminating their sinful habits and practices?

Quote:
M: Do you believe people who studied with a qualified SDA (someone who upholds the 28 fundamental beliefs and follows Ellen’s counsel in MR 373), who learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, can still practice certain sinful habits without realizing they are sinning?

T: Yes. I don't believe in instant perfection.

M: Please name examples of sinful habits such people commit without realizing it.

T: You've asked this many times, and I've answered it many times. I've probably answered this question 2 dozen different times. I compiled a list for you. Why don't you keep track of the answers instead of re-asking the same questions that have been asked and answered so many times? Any sin which a person commits which he is not aware is a sin would qualify.

Please reread my question. It is different this time. I’ve never asked it this way before. I’m asking it this time about born-again, baptized believers who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, that is, they are living in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs. Obviously such people cannot have more than one wife simultaneously, break the Sabbath, believe God tortures disembodied souls in hell forever, et cetera without realizing they are living in violation of God’s will.

Once a person is living in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs, what remains for the Holy Spirit to reveal to them, that is, which sins can they commit without realizing they are violating the will of God? I don’t think you have ever addressed this question before.

By the way, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not asking if they will ever sin again. Of course newborn believers slip up and find themselves committing a sin they know good and well is a sin. I believe the people I described above are incapable of committing a sin they do not know immediately afterward is a sin. That is, they knew before they committed it that it is a sin. Hopefully I’m being clear. If not, please let me know and I’ll try to clarify the point.

Quote:
T: You have a theory, which I don't know what it's based on, that everybody instinctively knows the last six commandments. People don't even know how to swim by instinct. People have to learn almost everything, but even if we disallowed, for the sake of argument, disobedience to the last six commandments, that would still leave the first four. If you don't think these are known by instinct, then these would be possibilities, right?

Paul wrote that everyone has “a measure of faith” and that “which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them”. And Ellen wrote, “As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. (RC 106) The human mind is endowed with power to discriminate between right and wrong. (DA 458) His law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every fiber of our being, upon every faculty which has been entrusted to man. (OHC 266)

Quote:
T: As I stated, I think you're whole way of thinking about this is wrong. You're looking at behavior in terms of the keeping of rules, as I perceive things, and thinking that this is what is important. What I believe is important is one's heart, and if one's heart is right, one will follow Christ and obey, to the best of one's knowledge. But one's knowledge may be imperfect. One doesn't know all there is to following Christ in an instant. And as one matures, things which wouldn't have even been thought of earlier will strike one as sin. Say there's a person X, and X here's the Gospel, and gives his life to Christ. Are you think such a person:

A. Is not converted, even though he's given his life to Christ.
B. Is not born again, even though he's given his life to Christ.
C. Is converted/born again, because he's given his life to Christ, and has instantly become perfect, not sinning in any way (excepting dress, diet, and Sabbath), not just in the sense of known sins, but unknown sins as well (excluding the things mentioned).
d. Or something else?

Regarding X-Men, Peter wrote, “Newborn babes” who have “tasted that the Lord is gracious . . . desire the sincere milk of the word [and] grow thereby” have also laid “aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speaking.” And, referring to X-Men, Ellen also wrote, “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

I realize you believe these insights must necessarily be interpreted to include only those sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit reveals to them, which, by implication, excludes a host of sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit was forced not to reveal to them, which also implies, therefore, that they go on practicing them without realizing they are violating the will of God. However, as you may well suspect by now, I totally and emphatically disagree with this idea. Besides, you have yet to post passages which clearly say people experience rebirth before they realize which sinful habits and practices violate the last six commandments. Please do so, or, if not, at least admit they do not exist. Citing Martin Luther’s sins as proof does not cut it.

Peter made it clear that the newborn babes he described have laid aside “all evil speaking”. Regarding “evil speaking” James wrote, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” Peter also said they have laid aside “all guile”. Regarding “guile” John wrote, “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth [and] in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Hopefully this response answers your question. I suppose option D above is the correct answer. However, I am perfectly aware of the fact most people experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs. Nevertheless, I do not believe people who experience genuine rebirth are reborn ignorant of the sinful habits and practices that violate the last six commandments. In fact, the only commandment they could possibly break without realizing they are sinning is the fourth commandment.

I realize you believe sins like polygamy and racial/ethnic prejudices are practiced without realizing it is a sin by people who experience genuine rebirth; but I disagree. The seventh commandment forbids sexual relations between people who are not married to one another. Technically speaking, polygamists are married, so technically they’re not committing adultery. In their hearts they do not think or feel they are breaking the seventh commandment. And, so far as racial/ethnic prejudices is concerned, a genuinely born-again believer will not go around hating and despising people prejudicially. They will feel very uncomfortable with their former prejudices because of the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit and the truth as is it in Jesus.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #133339
05/07/11 04:15 PM
05/07/11 04:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Is converted/born again, because he's given his life to Christ, and has instantly become perfect, not sinning in any way (excepting dress, diet, and Sabbath), not just in the sense of known sins, but unknown sins as well (excluding the things mentioned).

I would like to comment on the phrase "has instantly become prefect". Regarding perfection Paul wrote, "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." How can people who are cleansed of all sin perfect holiness? Isn't holiness holy enough?

I believe people who are reborn living in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs are born again "perfect and complete in all the will of God." (Col 4:12) They are born again with all the fruits and righteous attributes of God's character. Not one fruit or trait of character is missing. Nevertheless, they are not born again mature in the fruits of the Spirit. They go on maturing and "perfecting holiness" "more and more unto the perfect day". Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our ability to perfect holiness.

The difference between yesterday and tomorrow as people grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit is measured in terms of "righteousness and true holiness" and not in terms of becoming less and less sinful and unholy. It is an “advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250) Not an advance from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection and so on until they achieve perfection.

Also, just because we are born again with defects, weaknesses, and imperfections it does not mean we are acting them out in sinful ways. Nor are we guilty of sinning because we might in the near future express them in sinful ways. Having them is not the same thing as sinning. To be guilty of sin we must first sin. People who are predisposed to impatience, which includes nearly everyone alive, are not guilty of sin based on the fact they might be impatient in the next few minutes.

So long as they are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature they are not, at that time and under those conditions, sinning. People cannot be guilty of sinning and innocent of sinning simultaneously. We are only capable of thinking or doing one thing at a time. We either sinning or not sinning every second of every day. There is never a second of time when we're neither sinning nor being righteous. We are always one or the other.

Again, we are not guilty of sinning based solely on the fact we possess defects, weaknesses, and imperfections and may at any moment act them out in sinful ways. We must sin first to be guilty of sinning. If the people I described above are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature they do not and cannot commit a sin. They must first consciously refuse or unconsciously neglect to abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature to commit a sin.

And, no, unconsciously neglecting to abide in Jesus is not a sin. Yes, it results in sinning, but it is not in and of itself a sin. Take Eve as an example. It was not a sin for her to leave the safety of Adam's side, nor was it a sin to dialog with the serpent, nor was it a sin to handle the forbidden fruit. Not until she actually bit into the forbidden fruit did Eve sin. Until that instant she was guiltless and innocent. She unconsciously neglected to abide in Jesus and it resulted in her eating the forbidden fruit.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #133346
05/07/11 09:33 PM
05/07/11 09:33 PM
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Quote:
MM: Another question. You and I both believe “that which may be known of God is manifest” to everyone “for God hath showed it unto them . . . even his eternal power and Godhead . . . knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death.” I believe everyone is born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments and that this knowledge is confirmed as the Holy Spirit works to draw them to Jesus.

Tom: Why do you believe this about the last 6 commandments? Why do you exclude the other commandments? I can see excluding the Sabbath, but why the others? Why would a person have an instinctive knowledge that one should be formally married, but not that one shouldn't worship idols?


Here's a brief comment which may be helpful in the issue of ‘what does a person morally “know” before formal Baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit.’ As the last 6 Commandments affect ‘Man’s relationship to fellow Man’, they may become “convicted’ of violating any of requirements in these Commandments simply because of a “Golden Rule” implication and/or an innate knowledge that they will be acting “unlovingly” towards their fellow man.

In regards to the first 4 Commandments, especially now in our Post-Modern Age, they may not be aware that there is a God to Love, moreover observe what He requires in the first 4 Commandments.

Interestingly enough, before our post-modern age, the faith-based belief in some sort of an invisible God was always present.

-To the Antediluvians, it was through the prolonged testimony of the Sons of God, keeping in mind that Adam lived through over half of those ca. 1700 years before the flood. So these people were sinning against first-hand testimony, even “knowledge” as the “sons of men” (= descendants of Cain) probably were told by Cain (for perhaps also ca. 900+ years) of his own fall and saw the mark on his forehead to corroborate that testimony.

-Then, after the Flood, pp through Abraham, Peoples then, all descendants of Noah, had a tangible knowledge of God through the Flood Judgement event.

-To the ‘Patriarchs and Israel’ Pagan Peoples and Generations, God was able to reveal Himself to these peoples (e.g., Joseph in Egypt, the Plagues of Egypt, the Exodus Miracles, Conquest of Canaan, etc) through clear, Great Actions. Indeed the Presence of Israel as an established nation up through 70 A.D. was a historically ascertainable/verifiable testimony to Gentiles of the God of Israel, the Creator God of Heaven and only true God, who indeed God back up what He claimed He had the power to do. Especially as seen in prophecies (e.g., Isa 45:18-25; 46:9-11). Even Titus, as he was warring against the Jews and after he had ordered that Jerusalem should be mercilessly destroyed made repeated comments that it was clear that Israel God’s had abandoned them and was warring on the side of the Romans. Obviously he knew that, despite the renown and great Roman military might, they had a most powerful God who could easily defeat them.

-Then the Jew’s Testimony of God, was replaced by the testimony of the New Testament/Christian Church, which lasted, and quite prominently, right up through ca. the late 1800's. Indeed the current trend towards Atheism and Post-Modernism began to become prominent around the 1840's.

So really all generations had a clear testimony that the Creator God, which was made amply known through His, at times, faithful people, should be, at the very least, respected as they best knew how to. If they were familiar with God’s People/Israel, then they had a knowledge of the first 4 Commandments. It is really in our Day and Age that God is being ignored and even disrespected as God’s people now are not reflecting His Character and the competing theories that seek to eclipse Him are thus left to make increasing gains in this regards.

So in summary, the last 6 Commandments are self-revealed as Man deals with other Men they can see, and they know first hand how violating these commandments indeed feels, and is wrong. In regards to God who they cannot see, nor have a tangible/verifiable “witness” to enlighten them, this knowledge is not so “self-evident” and must be rightly proclaimed and properly modelled by God’s professed people.

I can’t, time-wise, afford to get involved in this discussion, but I hope this is helpful!


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: NJK Project] #133358
05/08/11 03:23 PM
05/08/11 03:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
NJK, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this point. I agree with you.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #133399
05/10/11 01:35 AM
05/10/11 01:35 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
T: When I was converted, I wasn't prepared for baptism.

M: Jesus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." You seem to be separating rebirth and baptism in a way which means newborn believers cannot enter the kingdom of God.

T: I've got no idea what you're trying to say here. Of course newborn believers can enter the kingdom of God. What have I said that would imply they cannot?

M:You wrote, "When I was converted, I wasn't prepared for baptism." I assumed you believe people who are reborn or converted are qualified to enter the kingdom of God.


It depends on the meaning of "kingdom of God" here. If you're speaking in a public way, as Jesus was, then one would have to be baptized as well, as Jesus indicated.

Quote:
From this assumption I deduced you believe people experience rebirth or conversion before they are qualified to be baptized.


Yes, of course. Baptism is a public demonstration of what has occurred in the heart. What occurs in the heart must occur before the public demonstration of that.

Quote:
As you know, Jesus made it clear no one will enter the kingdom of God without being baptized.


The thief on the cross was not baptized, yet he was told he would be in heaven. So one need not be baptized to be qualified enter into heaven, right?

Quote:
M:And to be baptized they must first be prepared and qualified. Jesus also made it clear that qualification for baptism includes learning how to live in harmony with “all things whatsoever” Jesus commanded.


I think Jesus had in mind His teachings.

Quote:
Do you agree with Ellen’s view in MR 373 (the long passage posted above and omitted by you)


You want a long passage quoted every time? Why?

Quote:
of what Jesus requires of baptismal candidates prior to receiving the ordinance of baptism?


You mean the passage you omitted here? What specifically in regards to EGW's view are you asking about?

Quote:
M:Are people born again in basically the same sinful state they were in before experiencing rebirth and then they begin a gradual process of discovering and eliminating their sinful habits and practices?


When people are born again, which is to say justified, there is a transformation, as explained here:

Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)


Quote:
M: Do you believe people who studied with a qualified SDA (someone who upholds the 28 fundamental beliefs and follows Ellen’s counsel in MR 373), who learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, can still practice certain sinful habits without realizing they are sinning?

T: Yes. I don't believe in instant perfection.

M: Please name examples of sinful habits such people commit without realizing it.

T: You've asked this many times, and I've answered it many times. I've probably answered this question 2 dozen different times. I compiled a list for you. Why don't you keep track of the answers instead of re-asking the same questions that have been asked and answered so many times? Any sin which a person commits which he is not aware is a sin would qualify.

M:Please reread my question. It is different this time. I’ve never asked it this way before. I’m asking it this time about born-again, baptized believers who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, that is, they are living in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs. Obviously such people cannot have more than one wife simultaneously, break the Sabbath, believe God tortures disembodied souls in hell forever, et cetera without realizing they are living in violation of God’s will.

Once a person is living in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs, what remains for the Holy Spirit to reveal to them, that is, which sins can they commit without realizing they are violating the will of God? I don’t think you have ever addressed this question before.

By the way, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not asking if they will ever sin again. Of course newborn believers slip up and find themselves committing a sin they know good and well is a sin. I believe the people I described above are incapable of committing a sin they do not know immediately afterward is a sin. That is, they knew before they committed it that it is a sin. Hopefully I’m being clear. If not, please let me know and I’ll try to clarify the point.


Yes, this is clear. We've discussed this. I disagree, which I've explained, but I'll address it again.

When a person is first baptized, they do not know all there is about everything. Sin involves our view of the law. When our view of the law expands, so does our view of sin. So what may not struck as a sin earlier in our maturation, may do so later on.

An easy way to see what you're suggesting can't be the case is to consider the case of a child. How young can one be baptized? Say age 10, 11, or 12. Surely you don't think a 12 year old has a completely developed sense of sin that would encompass any possible sin he could commit, do you?

Also, many sins are quite subtle. Waggoner spoke of this. So did Jones. As people learned the Gospel more clearly, they repented of what they had done earlier. It didn't mean they weren't converted, but they now viewed things more clearly.

To give a simple example, when newly converted, one might be motivate by hope of reward and fear of punishment. Later on it is the beauty of Christ's character that motivates. The egocentric motivations are seen as sin to be repented of.

Also, there's nothing in Ellen White's writings to suggest that the 28 fundamental beliefs encompass all light. Indeed, she wrote that there would be more light to come, and that we would be fooling ourselves if we thought we wouldn't have cherished ideas that we needed to let go.

I'll stop here for now, as this is already fairly long.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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