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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133408
05/10/11 01:02 PM
05/10/11 01:02 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Notice the close parallel between the circumstances of this prophecy and the 40 years of wilderness wandering and humbling. Here Judah is punished, but in this case it’s the reverse scenario; rather than suffering and wandering 40 years as punishment for 40 days of unbelief, here the punishment is 40 days of siege punishment for 40 years of unfaithfulness. And the same parallel is seen in the case of Israel; for 390 years of iniquity the siege was to last 390 days. So the time periods are reversed – in Numbers it’s a year for a day but here it’s a day for a year.

Consider the implications. The two passages that establish the day/year principle operate both ways. So we have one prophecy of 40 represent days and the same period is the second case representing years. It's the context that determines which applies.
That's an interesting thought. Kind of an inverse parallelism.

Mark, it's obvious that not all time prophecies are a year for a day. Rosangela said there was a thread about determining when it's a symbolic day and when it's a literal day, but I can see there is no incentive for her to search for it assuming it showed there are times for each. How do you say one determines which determines which? More specifically, do you believe Daniel 12 (not the part of chapter 11), applies to the past, the future, or both?

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: His child] #133410
05/10/11 01:19 PM
05/10/11 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child
Since Mrs. White places "these last days" after 1844, and Daniel 12 is linked to the rivers, it follows that EVERYTHING in Daniel 12 "from God was given especially for these last days." Thus the 1260 in Daniel 12 is not applicable to the 538-1798 events that are fixed historically before 1844.

And the 1260, 1290 and 1335 in Daniel 12 cannot be understood after 1844 in the context of a day for a year and still apply to the last days (sometime beyond 1844). From any date after 1844, the 1260-years would extend beyond 3104AD.
Besides making reasonable sense, do you see there any other reason why Daniel 12 is literal days instead of symbolic days?

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133417
05/10/11 09:08 PM
05/10/11 09:08 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Have another look. Is the seige/punishment symbolic or literal? The seige is the punishment and there is no doubt it occurred literally and it was as the author notes a 'day for a year', whereas the punishment of Israel in the wilderness was the opposite, a year of punishment for a day of spying/unbelief.


It seems to me that there are two distinct symbolic events in Ezek 4:1-8. There is a siege against Jerusalem (vss. 1-3 & 7, 8) with a bearing of the sins of Israel (390) and Judah (40) (vs. 4-6). These actually represented literal years of sins. As summarized here, (see in Section {5}), Israel’s 390 years extended from ca. 928 B.C. until the Restoration in 538 B.C. and Judah’s 40 years would be, as God judiciously planned, for the Ezekiel prophecied Judgement (Ezek 8-11) when a complete destruction of their religious community was effectuated. Ezekiel’s days of siege (4:7, 8) were not specified.


Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
What's bad about spying? The Isrealites should have trusted God that He would give them a good land. The spying was not necessary and was positively harmful.


Where in the Bible is it said/implied/supported, as EGW claims, that “it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country. The matter was presented before the Lord by Moses” (PP 387.1)??

It rather seems to me that it was God who outrightly ordered that a spying of the land take place (Num 13:1, 2ff). Either way I do see this as something “harmful” in itself, especially “positively”. As seen by the good reports of Joshua and Caleb, it could/should have been a faith confirming act. In fact, God probably, at the very least, permitted it so that the faith of the Israelites in Him could be concretely tested before He supernaturally acted for them, as before they did not have a knowledge of what they were going to face and have to trust God with. And, also, it was, in terms of wider witness, better for them to become faithless and fail before engaging in the fight, then while in the fight, as that would mean sure, and even utter, defeat in the hand of their enemies, as these enemies would make sure not to leave any Israelite alive (i.e., the woman and children who would have remained in the camp beyond the Jordan) who may later try again to dispossess them of their land.

So, also, it can be seen that God’s planned punishment of even utterly wiping out Israel for this hindering faithlessness was indeed just and quite fitting.

Last edited by NJK Project; 05/10/11 10:56 PM.

“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133425
05/11/11 01:22 AM
05/11/11 01:22 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Where in the Bible is it said/implied/supported, as EGW claims, that “it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country. The matter was presented before the Lord by Moses” (PP 387.1)??

It rather seems to me that it was God who outrightly ordered that a spying of the land take place (Num 13:1, 2ff).


Good point NJK. I stand corrected. The spying was not the problem, it was the evil reports.

Re the duration of Ezekiel's acted prophecy, chapter 4, unless I've missed something obvious (like I did above), I don't see how you can say the days of the seige weren't specified.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: kland] #133426
05/11/11 01:29 AM
05/11/11 01:29 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
How do you say one determines which determines which? More specifically, do you believe Daniel 12 (not the part of chapter 11), applies to the past, the future, or both?


kland, I'm still studying that issue. Miller's rules of interpretation are helpful. His Child's thoughts are reasonable in my view too. I think Daniel 12 applies primarily to the future.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133428
05/11/11 03:40 AM
05/11/11 03:40 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Re the duration of Ezekiel's acted prophecy, chapter 4, unless I've missed something obvious (like I did above), I don't see how you can say the days of the seige weren't specified.


Perhaps, upon closer reading/analysis, Ezek 4:8 does tie the “sieging” and “sin bearing” acts together, and this may be for the tangible reason that, just as a siege is to prevent a city from obtaining/procuring additional/new livelihood, possibly ending in its death if it was not properly prepared/stocked up, the time that Ezekiel was to bear the sins of both Israel (10 tribes) and Judah (2 tribes) was going to be a period where Jerusalem was also going to have to Spiritually “survive on its own” while its past and outstanding sins were being atoned for on a ‘day for a year’ basis. Ezek 4:9-17 seems to symbolically depict/indicate the results of this Spiritual “seige-like” hiatus.

This all seems to be the same things that occurs when sins are put away in God’s Sanctuary, as for a while, there no longer is an Intercessor. This also briefly occurred during Israel’s annual day of Atonement. So during that sin atoning time, as in the siege, people were to live/survive solely on/from the Spiritual and Physical “provisions” that they had made prior to this time.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133429
05/11/11 03:41 AM
05/11/11 03:41 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Where in the Bible is it said/implied/supported, as EGW claims, that “it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country. The matter was presented before the Lord by Moses” (PP 387.1)?? It rather seems to me that it was God who outrightly ordered that a spying of the land take place (Num 13:1, 2ff).


Though I still don’t see explicit Biblical corroboration for EGW’s claim here, I could see along her lines, that it was the faithless actions of the People, as especially seen in chapters leading up to this, (namely Num 11; cf. 12), that may have led God to test their faith here, to see if it was really deserving of what He was about to do for them. And so He instructed that spies should be sent to make these testing facts known.

Notwithstanding, it also may then have been quite possible that this idea was “proposed” by these now quite faithless people and God indeed approved it through these instructions not to reassure the people as what the 10 faithless spies stated was in some ways the truth (it is just that they chose to focus on the negatives), but to test them as He normative does (Deut 8:2; 13:1-3; cf. Gen 22:12; Exod 15:25, 26; 16:4; 2 Chr 32:31)

Last edited by NJK Project; 05/11/11 04:02 AM.

“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133430
05/11/11 12:25 PM
05/11/11 12:25 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Some resources for those who wish to study more about this subject:

The Time Prophecies in Dan. 12 – by Gerhard Pfandl
www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/.../The%20Time%20Prophecies%20in%20Dan%2012.pdf

The 1.290 and 1.335 Days of Daniel 12 – by Alberto R. Timm
http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/daniel12.htm

kland:
I couldn't find the thread where we discussed the figurative language used when the numbers are to be taken figuratively, but you will find some comments about it in this study:
biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/year-day%20principle.pdf.
One of the indicators is that the word "year(s)" is never used, although this would be the normal way someone would express himself.
I have a deadline to meet, so I'm not having much time, but I'll participate as time permits.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133431
05/11/11 12:54 PM
05/11/11 12:54 PM
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kland  Offline
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Quote:
R: Affirming that there will be a period of 3.5 years of persecution is just setting another date for Christ's coming - something we are warned not to do - for what should one expect at the end of such a period of persecution?

k: What date was set?

R: When the persecution does begin, the countdown would also begin.

So would you agree that no date has been set as of yet?
But, was it said that when this "countdown" begins, does Christ come right at the end at a specific date, which hasn't yet been set?


By the way, I've have read Timm's arguments (if you could call them that) in the past. I'm sure you would find no fallacies with his logic. I do. And that's not just because I disagree with him. Dishonesty or incompetence is an opinion which comes to my mind. I find it interesting that his comments along with one other has been presented as prove all and end all - end of discussion. Who is this Timm guy besides being from the Biblical Research Institute? Why isn't this discussed in our churches and evangelistic series?

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133432
05/11/11 12:58 PM
05/11/11 12:58 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Good point NJK. I stand corrected. The spying was not the problem, it was the evil reports.
Something to consider is that it wasn't God's will for Israel to have a king. However, He helped them select one.

I think spying was a problem, a lack of faith, and it is similar to, who killed Saul. Seems like I came across the spying issue before and may try to find it.

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