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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Green Cochoa] #133709
05/22/11 05:04 PM
05/22/11 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
...It may be that Mark sees something that you do not see.


Hence my repeated request to him to state his reasons in regards to those SOP quotes. Yet so far no answer to those questions. Is it (to be) “Classified”/a “State’s Secret”??! I would let Mark speak for himself here.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Look more carefully at Mrs. White's statements relative to times after 1844. ... Her statements seem clear relative to time and 1844, I agree with that. But what exactly do they address?

It is my understanding based on rather extensive reading of those statements of hers that the following two points are true of all of the "prophetic time is no more" type statements which she makes:

1) She specifies this always for prophecies upon "definite time;" and
2) She is speaking always in terms of "second advent" prophecies.

In other words, the "prophetic time is no more after 1844" only applies to time prophecies which have a "definite time" (such as the Oct. 22, 1844 date had), and also to prophecies which would seek to predict Jesus' coming (as the Oct. 22, 1844 date did). After that date, there were to be no more such prophecies. In other words, the Oct. 22 date for the second coming was ordained to be preached by God, who even held His hand over a mistake in Miller's figures, but that was to be the last such prophecy upon "definite time" which would seek to predict the Lord's coming.

This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.


I have presently indeed looked at EGW’s statement “more carefully,” and as due, collectively, so as not to isolatively take one statement of hers to make her say/mean something that she never meant. The question is did you?? I.e, Properly/closely/“carefully”. It indeed seems even more clear to me that your view, and the ones claiming future time fulfillments are actually, even outrightly (i.e, without any plausible valid support), a “private” one(s). Just for the transparent record here are some, (i.e., those that do not solely speak of not setting a time for Christ’s return itself. (E.g, 10MR 272.1 (1891)).:

Originally Posted By: SOP 2 SM 73.2 (1885) = {LDE 35.3}
I plainly stated at the Jackson camp meeting to these fanatical parties that they were doing the work of the adversary of souls; they were in darkness. They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844.


I don’t know if there is a record of what those “fanatics” were teaching, i.e, what time prophecies they were using to make their “close of probation” claims, but it seems intuitively/thematically logical to me that these were the Dan 12 time elements of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 days (Dan 12:1ff, 7b, 11, 12). As these times are variously restated in the prophecies of Revelation, particularly the 1260 days, then the future application of those times seems to also be inclusively covered by EGW. And as the Daniel 12 times are the ones most directly linked to a “close of probation” notion, if EGW was not speaking of those, but other times that this group was using, i.e., anytime in the book of Revelation, then it goes without saying that she did indeed condemn their use to figure out when probation will close.

Originally Posted By: SOP 10MR 270.1 (1888) = {LDE 36.1}
Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming.


I see that this ‘no intervening time’ statement (= 1844-1884ff-Second Coming) completely invalidates your: “indefinite time” and ‘not pointing to Jesus' coming times’ theories. Indeed she is clear that there are to be ‘no more “times reckoning” of any kind, and at all in/during the intervening time since after “the close of the prophetic periods in 1844”’. So it therefore seems to me that she was here pointedly addressing this type of argument that you are making.

Indeed this ‘no intervening time’ statement thus voids an/(your apparent) understanding that she meant in the rest of 10MR 270.1:
Originally Posted By: SOP 10MR 270.1 (1888)
We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door.

that “prophetic reckoning” involved ‘other shorter times’, as also seen her other statements below, Her“the” definite and singular reference here shows that she was “yet”/still referring to “the prophetic reckoning” of the 2300 days to make this ‘near the end’ statement.[/quote]

Originally Posted By: SOP 7BC 971.7 (1900) = {cf. LDE 36.2}
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Revelation 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.


The range of time of “1842-1844" includes the time prophecy that found a fulfillment within it, namely the 1335 days, which I see as the time when probation could indeed have closed, a year before the 1844 possible end. (Candid circumstances ‘on the ground’ just didn’t make it be able to be the case. Indeed William Miller’s mistake should have led people to be fully ready by the initial mistaken date of/in 1843.). Only the 2300 days (‘the longest of those times’) ended in what was priorly believed to be the date for the Second Coming. This would be the only time that fits your theory criteria.

It seems to me that she indeed includes more than one time prophecy in this category of ‘“prophetic time which should precede the advent of our Lord”. Also her use of “precede” here implies to me any time which would not necessarily culminate in the very end such as the 1335 days.

Originally Posted By: SOP RH, November 22, 1892 par. 7
Let every one who claims to believe that the Lord is soon coming, search the Scriptures as never before; for Satan is determined to try every device possible to keep souls in darkness, and blind the mind to the perils of the times in which we are living. Let every believer take up his Bible with earnest prayer, that he may be enlightened by the holy Spirit as to what is truth, that he may know more of God and of Jesus Christ whom he has sent. Search for the truth as for hidden treasures, and disappoint the enemy. The time of test is just upon us, for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin-pardoning Redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth. For it is the work of every one to whom the message of warning has come, to lift up Jesus, to present him to the world as revealed in types, as shadowed in symbols, as manifested in the revelations of the prophets, as unveiled in the lessons given to his disciples and in the wonderful miracles wrought for the sons of men. Search the Scriptures; for they are they that testify of him.


Some today use time calculations to say when the Loud Cry, which occurs after the Sealing, would begin, however EGW here saw in 1892 that it had already begun, and as she believed since some time soon after 1844, without any prophetic time reckoning involved/contributing to this knowledge. Indeed, as she understood, those Final Events will only occur (or in her case begin to occur) when the work regard them begins to be done. In her case, this was begun to be done with the 1888 message/revival, however when things changed later on with the Church, God had to halt and postpone that possible fulfillement of the End/Second Coming. (Cf. DA 633.3; LDE 38.2)

Originally Posted By: SOP RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12
The Lord showed me that Time had not been a test since 1844, and that time will never again be a test.


In regards pointedly to the assumption in your theory, if “(prophetic) time” had been (i.e., 1850) and was to ever again be, a test since (Oct. 22) 1844, then it would mean that shorter times, than the only applicable 2300 day prophecy would have to be involved. So in this statement, EGW was included all other lesser time periods. Also surely she would not have a view that the 2300 days were to be literally fulfilled, i.e., in ca. 6 years 3 months and 20 days, and with another ‘sanctuary cleansing’ event. (Dan 8:14). Indeed, as time literal time reckoning for the 2300 since October 22, 1844 would only first have a ending fulfillment in ca. February 11, 1851, then she was evidently blanketly including all lesser time reckonings in/with this statement, which was actually God’s own statement, and thus the injunctively, God-Stipulated Hermeneutic Rule for post-1844 believers, as that entire vision of hers correctively was.

Originally Posted By: SOP 2 SM 73.2 (1885)
I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844; and that I knew that this message, which four or five were engaged in advocating with great zeal, was heresy. The visions of this poor child were not of God. This light came not from heaven. Time was short; but the end was not yet. A great work was to be accomplished to prepare a people to be sealed with the seal of the living God.--An Exposure of Fanaticism and Wickedness (Pamphlet), pp. 9, 10 (1885)


The same sequitur/straightforward logic as just above applies for this quote as EGW is manifestly not conversely saying nor implying that ‘there will only not be no “literal 2300-day (=6.3 years)” definite time in the message given of God since 1844.’


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Mountain Man] #133711
05/22/11 05:13 PM
05/22/11 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Maybe. However, if we translate "this generation" to mean the Christian Age we are not forced to interpret "all these things" to exclude such prominent aspects of Jesus' prophecy as the great tribulation and the dark day/blood moon and falling stars events from our 70 AD fulfillment model. Nor would it force us to reject the dual application principle of certain aspects of Jesus' prophecy in relation to both 70 AD and the final crisis.


My foundational exegetical method/approach is to let the text naturally speak for itself, and derive straightforward theological understanding/implications from it. That is why I straightforwardly see that Jesus fully intended the full end by ca. A.D. 90 with “that generation” (cf. Psa 95:10 (LXX) same Greek word as in Matt 24:34; cf. Matt 23:36) alive then, and therefore, as this did not occur as He said under inspiration, I then theologically seek to find why not. Succinctly said, this fit perfectly in my Foreplanning View of God and the Future, (also discussed in this forum) where His “prophetic plans” still depend on the obedient cooperation of particularly His professed people to be timely and (literally) fully fulfilled. (That is how I also come to theologically understand Christ’s failed statement/“prophecy” in Matt 10:23.)

That is indeed the Theological story with/for God’s prophecies given to and for ancient Israel. Indeed in the episode of Num 14, it is seen that because of the “sudden and unforeseen” (cf. Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29) rebellion of ‘the generation of adults’ (Psa 95:10) that came out of Egypt, God could not fulfill His Word of Promise (= Prophecy) to them (Psa 95:11; Num 14:35). Indeed, as Paul understood, this was, and still is, an enduring Divine principle and condition for (anti-typical) fulfillment (Heb 3:7-4:3).


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133714
05/22/11 07:42 PM
05/22/11 07:42 PM
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NJK, I do not believe Jesus intended for His words in Matthew 24 to mean He originally envisioned returning by 90 AD.

Nor do I believe His words in Mat 10:23 failed to be fulfilled. They are still fulfilling, and will continue fulfilling until the moment He says, "It is finished", at which point everyone will have made their final choice for or against the seal of God.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Mountain Man] #133715
05/22/11 09:08 PM
05/22/11 09:08 PM
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As I stated above, I, for substantive reasons, Biblically and Theologically believe otherwise. It is clear to me, in harmony with many other such instances in the Bible, that transpired conditioned caused a change in what had been planned and indeed could/should have (potentially) occurred. Indeed just like, as EGW saw, the Second Coming could/should have occurred in her time.

By the way, my 90 A.D. view was explained in some detail earlier in this thread Post #133055. More corroborating details can be found in this blog post in relation to the discussion on the Rev. 5 “Prophetic/History Continuance Crisis” of ca. 70 A.D. or later.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133740
05/24/11 06:47 AM
05/24/11 06:47 AM
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A couple more explicitly stated and commented statements of EGW on ‘the end of all/any prophetic time’:

Originally Posted By: SOP 6MR 251.2 {1850}
Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman, Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged.


As these 1335 days (Dan 12:12) ended in 1843, and not on October 22, 1844, it showed that in this 1850 statement, EGW did not have a view that such ‘other than the 2300-day time elements’ could/would be refulfilled. And it must be emphasized that she and other early Adventist Pioneers believed then that the end was (still) very near/imminent.

Originally Posted By: SOP EW 75.1 (1882)
The Lord has shown me that the message of the third angel must go, and be proclaimed to the scattered children of the Lord, but it must not be hung on time. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time; but the third angel's message is stronger than time can be. I saw that this message can stand on its own foundation and needs not time to strengthen it; and that it will go in mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness.


The “third angel’s message” here pointedly refers to the Final Conflict of the Mark of the Beast and not to the Second Coming itself. The notion of “cutting it short in righteousness speaks of (actually) the Shaking (Rom 9:28 (KJV) cf. Isa 10:20-23 and its ensuing ‘Time of Trouble’ (Matt 24:21, 22). Manifestly, indeed as seen today, people in EGW days were trying to set out/chart definite times for these events which are to occur prior to the Second Coming. EGW was clearly “shown” however that the preaching of the Seal of God vs. Mark of the Beast Conflict message (Rev 14:9-11) was to be complete free of any time reckonings. This indeed defeats most, if not all of the popular time reckonings seen today as those claimed eschatological, literal time, fulfillments (i.e., 45 days; 1260 days/42 months/3.5 years; 1290 days & 1335 days) all are said to have some kind of fulfillment for some event/development in/during this Final Conflict, especially its ‘Time of Trouble’.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Mountain Man] #133762
05/25/11 09:59 AM
05/25/11 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: GC
This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

What purpose would a time prophecy that doesn't pinpoint specific times and dates serve? What use would we make of it? In other words, why would God specify a period of time, say 1260 years, without also specifying definitive starting and ending dates?


My view is close to GC's on this. Ellen White specifies in several places the kinds of future preditions that are not allowed - the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the close of probation, the return of Christ. One category that she left out from those three that are off limits is specific periods of persecution. If the early church was warned of periods of persecution in advance more than once, it seems consistant that we would also be given similar warnings. One of those warnings that we need to understand according to Ellen White is in Daniel 12 IMO.
Quote:
Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133764
05/25/11 11:40 AM
05/25/11 11:40 AM
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Mark, as the above EGW quotes show, EGW did not endorse the reapplying of the 1335 days (Dan 12:12). I would natrually, comprehensively understand that this also applies to the closely related 1290 days (Dan 12:11). EGW believe that both of these time elements/prophecies were already completed/fullfilled in 1843 and 1798 respectively. To me this is what she inclusively intended in her ‘longest of these prophecies’ statement.

The mention of the ‘time, times and half a time’ (Dan 12:7) seems to me, in context, to be a direct reference to the historical period of Catholic dominance ad persecutions 538-1798 (=Dan 7:25). It is only because the second coming did not occur in 1844 as it could and should have, that that prophesied Second Coming ending (Dan 12:1-3) did not immediately occur/transpire then.

Furthermore, Daniel was overhearing in this ca. 536 B.C. conversation one asking about the fulfillment of these prophecies. (Dan 12:6), To which another angel responded by restating the indicative historical time period of the 1260 days (Dan 12:7 = Dan 7:25). Daniel however did not understand these times (Dan 12:8-10 = vss. 3, 4).

So I exegetically see that the mention of the ‘1260 days’ in vs. 7 is only a reference to the historical period of persecution of Dan 7:25 and not another post 1798/1844 timed period for the persecutions that will occur, indeed when Dan 11:40-12:3 will then be fulfilled.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133770
05/25/11 01:53 PM
05/25/11 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
GC: This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

MM: What purpose would a time prophecy that doesn't pinpoint specific times and dates serve? What use would we make of it? In other words, why would God specify a period of time, say 1260 years, without also specifying definitive starting and ending dates?

MS: My view is close to GC's on this. Ellen White specifies in several places the kinds of future preditions that are not allowed - the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the close of probation, the return of Christ. One category that she left out from those three that are off limits is specific periods of persecution. If the early church was warned of periods of persecution in advance more than once, it seems consistant that we would also be given similar warnings. One of those warnings that we need to understand according to Ellen White is in Daniel 12 IMO.

"Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}

Do you have in mind the 1260, 1290, and 1335 time prophecies?

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133781
05/25/11 05:35 PM
05/25/11 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Mark, as the above EGW quotes show, EGW did not endorse the reapplying of the 1335 days (Dan 12:12). I would natrually, comprehensively understand that this also applies to the closely related 1290 days (Dan 12:11). EGW believe that both of these time elements/prophecies were already completed/fullfilled in 1843 and 1798 respectively. To me this is what she inclusively intended in her ‘longest of these prophecies’ statement.

The mention of the ‘time, times and half a time’ (Dan 12:7) seems to me, in context, to be a direct reference to the historical period of Catholic dominance ad persecutions 538-1798 (=Dan 7:25). It is only because the second coming did not occur in 1844 as it could and should have, that that prophesied Second Coming ending (Dan 12:1-3) did not immediately occur/transpire then.

Furthermore, Daniel was overhearing in this ca. 536 B.C. conversation one asking about the fulfillment of these prophecies. (Dan 12:6), To which another angel responded by restating the indicative historical time period of the 1260 days (Dan 12:7 = Dan 7:25). Daniel however did not understand these times (Dan 12:8-10 = vss. 3, 4).

So I exegetically see that the mention of the ‘1260 days’ in vs. 7 is only a reference to the historical period of persecution of Dan 7:25 and not another post 1798/1844 timed period for the persecutions that will occur, indeed when Dan 11:40-12:3 will then be fulfilled.
I'm not aware where EGW applied the 1335 days. Could you quote where she applied 1335 days to a time other than the future?

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Mountain Man] #133782
05/25/11 05:40 PM
05/25/11 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: GC
This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

What purpose would a time prophecy that doesn't pinpoint specific times and dates serve? What use would we make of it? In other words, why would God specify a period of time, say 1260 years, without also specifying definitive starting and ending dates?
Could it be that the start point for the chapter 12 time lines are depending upon something different than the 1260 years of the past? Also, are there other time lines which don't have specific start dates but are conditional on behavior. I'm thinking of the "seven times" in the first part of Daniel.

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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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