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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Tom] #133860
05/30/11 09:48 AM
05/30/11 09:48 AM
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Charity  Online Content OP
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If the church undergoes 3.5 years of persecution, that doesn't set a date for any of the times or seasons that Christ and Ellen White said we're not to know.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133861
05/30/11 01:56 PM
05/30/11 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If the church undergoes 3.5 years of persecution, that doesn't set a date for any of the times or seasons that Christ and Ellen White said we're not to know.


Quite.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Tom] #133862
05/30/11 02:09 PM
05/30/11 02:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: NJK
We are to obey and discern the signs, not set dates and/or act only because of time reckonings. The ironic thing is that, since the Bible/SOP is clear that there will be no time involved in Eschatological fulfillments, those looking to set times will misguide themselves. E.g., they’ll put off the second coming 3.5 year after the start of some clear event, while Jesus may return in 2 months after that, or 8 years after that.

I agree with this.

I also agree.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Mountain Man] #133865
05/30/11 02:31 PM
05/30/11 02:31 PM
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1. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming. {10MR 270 (1888)}

2. The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Revelation 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {7BC 971 (1900)}

3. We are not to be engrossed with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not revealed. Jesus has told his disciples to "watch," but not for definite time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for the orders of their Captain; they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they approach the time for the coming of the Lord; but no one will be able to predict just when that time will come; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man." You will not be able to say that he will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off his coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. {RH, March 22, 1892}

Insights like the ones posted above make it difficult to believe the Bible contains time prophecies that will be fulfilled sometime after 1844 and sometime before Jesus returns. To what purpose would they serve? Since we cannot know Jesus will return in "one, two, or five years" what good would it do us to know a specified period of time (1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days) has finished fulfilling? Seems to me we would be no better off than knowing the 1260 and 2300 days ended in 1798 and 1844. That is, knowing those dates for the last 150 years hasn't helped us as it relates to the nearness of Jesus' second coming.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Tom] #133881
05/30/11 10:30 PM
05/30/11 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
However, you err in attributing base motives to those who don't share your views.

This is a good point.


For the Biblical and SOP reasons already stated at the end of Post #133845, I see this as the only Biblical implication here. It has the same “religious loophole” connotation as the remark in Deut 15:9, 10. Indeed it is not even a personal character observation. The testimony against any use of any definite time is too Explicitly Authoritative, consistent, pointed and really, when rightly analysed, unambigiuous.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133882
05/30/11 10:30 PM
05/30/11 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If the church undergoes 3.5 years of persecution, that doesn't set a date for any of the times or seasons that Christ and Ellen White said we're not to know.


As I understand the fulfillment of Bible prophecy it is according to a sequential pattern, irrespective of time elements that may or may not be present. And that is all due to a inherent spiritual cause and effect order and also a desired order in which God desires for things to develop and be dealt with. And, as shown in this post, eve the SOP Final Events prophecies follow this sequential template found in the intricately structured book of revelation as EGW’s revelation on the Shaking perfectly follows the cross-sectional disposition of Revelation’s prophecies which are all dealing with various aspects of the Remnant Work/Church.

So, though I do not believe that any prophecy will be refulfilled with the involvement of definite time, I do see that the Historical events that were involved in the fulfilling of the (1) 1260 [538-1798]; (2) 1290 [508-1798]; and (3) 1335 [508-1843] days will have a future, eschatological re-occurrence. That is namely and respectively:
(1) there will again be an organized period of various oppositions to work [= 538-1798];
(2) that period will be preceded by decided and seemingly non-related/non-religious based organizational efforts [= 508-538];
(3) there will be a relatively brief, post persecution “respite” [=1798-1843]
(4) then there will be a very brief, post close of probation period that mirrors a “living” without an intercessor time” [= 1843-1844]

All this to say, that if one knows the time when the period of 1260days = 42 months will take place, they can easily figure out when the Second Coming should typologically occur.

Also, as seen inn the Historical Fulfillement of the 1260 days, [538-1798] there were not persecutions by the Catholic Church throughout. They started with the Inquisitions around the 12th century. (I believe this curtailing of persecutions is all in fulfillment of Matt 24:32 “for the sake of the elect.”) So the 1260 days involve much more than persecutions. And I see these various events to have clearly been listed in the prophecy of Dan 7 in vss. 8b|20b-21|25. This is namely (and not necessarily in order) to:

-Papal Establishment - “speak out against the Most High”
-Changes in Religious Time and Laws - vs. 10 Commandments
-Persecution of non-conformers

In the same way, a (non-definite time) of 1260days/42 months in the future will involve period for these three distinct actions. (cf. Rev 13:3-7) So, as I see it even believing that this will be a definite time of 3.5 years, would not indicate either when actual persecutions would begin nor how long they would last since the could start and end at any time during that period. Just like Catholic done persecution in Church History was from ca. The 1100's-1600's. That indeed led to the mass exodus for North America starting around the 1640's. (cf. Rev 12:15, 16|13:11a) So long before that prophecy’s time end of 1798.

Again, my view is those time mentions in Revelation in prophecies that will be eschatologically fulfilled are referential indicators to the Historical fulfillment to show what to expect to transpire. So just like these time prophecies started in History with definite movement to establish the Catholic Church as a more authoritative and far reaching temporal power, (ca. 508 [1290&1335]), it would be expected that those time prophecies would begin to occur when the Modern Catholic Church will begin to make moves to exercise more authoritative temporal and that through its members in various countries. Indeed this can be peacefully and even quite fairly, democratically be done. Once its establish and has removed any remaining opposing world powers as with the historical achievements by 538, it will then begin to take its various actions religiously through that obtained civil power. It is sometime during that time, when those who truly observe God’s Law and Sabbath will be standing in the way of its total sway of power and even declared to be dangerous that persecutions will begin. I have not done the detailing/ “template-filling” of the rest of these Final Events however, I tentatively see that the falling of the Last Plagues will be in the equivalent time of the Historical 1798-1843 period and then then will come the utter end. [=1843-1844].

So as I see it, even if the 1260/42 month period is figured out, if it was actually applicable, it still would not be known when exactly the persecutions would begin or even end. The key is to have heeded SOP counsels long before the 508 A.D. mirroring establishment movement.

Furthermore, I see it as quite wise on God’s part to not involve definite time in the end. (1) Because, as I theologically believe, that end will occur whenever conditions on the ground come to necessitate it. So if men act to pass a Sunday and death decree with a month, then God would do His completing part to wrap things up long before a 3.5 year period (=Matt 24:32). And (2) it is much more hopeful to know that those persecutions could end at anytime, even soon, depending on how things actually advance/develop, rather than know from an ascertained day one that there inevitably are 1259 more days to go, no matter what.

Hope all this is helpful.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133887
05/30/11 11:49 PM
05/30/11 11:49 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
Furthermore, I see it as quite wise on God’s part to not involve definite time in the end. (1) Because, as I theologically believe, that end will occur whenever conditions on the ground come to necessitate it. So if men act to pass a Sunday and death decree with a month, then God would do His completing part to wrap things up long before a 3.5 year period (=Matt 24:32). And (2) it is much more hopeful to know that those persecutions could end at anytime, even soon, depending on how things actually advance/develop, rather than know from an ascertained day one that there inevitably are 1259 more days to go, no matter what.

I definitely agree.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133895
05/31/11 09:41 AM
05/31/11 09:41 AM
His child  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: EGW
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.(7BC 971.7)


Originally Posted By: His child
Many miss the context which should precede the advent of our Lord and read that statement to say: This time, which the angel declares...is...the end...of prophetic time. But a careful study of the Bible proves that prophetic time can be followed in both Daniel and Revelation after 1844.


Originally Posted By: NJK Project

I don’t see this response as being indicative nor conclusive of your point that prophetic time should be reckoned after 1844. Perhaps you think that the phrase: “which should precede the advent of our Lord” means ‘the time until/up to when Jesus actually returns,’ but that view would be/is refuted by the fact that, as recorded in 1MR 100.1, EGW made that statement in 1900 [=Ms 59, 1900, pp. 8, 9. ("Jots and Tittles, II," August 16, 1900.)], thus 56 years after 1844. Moreover, quite clearly in that statement, she understood this include all time period shorter than ‘the longest of those times’, namely the 2300 days.


The phrase THE prophetic time (or the prophetic period, which has virtually the same meaning in the Spirit of Prophecy): the context is that it “must reach to the fall of the year 1844.” (CET 50.1) “We were looking for the Savior to come in 1844.” (HS 213.2) “…The prophetic period which was to extend to the coming of Christ.” (DA 98.4) In almost every instance where the Spirit of Prophecy mentions the prophetic time, the context links it to the definite time of Christ’s Advent in 1844: not time prophecies in general. In context, EGW is saying: the people will not have another message upon the definite time of Christ’s Advent after 1844. Yet when prophetic time is wrenched from its true meaning, the consensus among Seventh-day Adventists has become that all time prophecies stopped in 1844. Her words are read as: This time, which the angel declares... is...the end...of prophetic time.


Originally Posted By: His child
The view that all prophetic time stopped in 1844 makes the Spirit of Prophecy contradict the Scriptures.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

From even just your quoted EGW statement above I don’t see this to be true. Also what “Scripture” are you referring to. To say that you “believe” that the time element in a Bible prophecy will be fulfilled in the future, or even, has recently been fulfilled, is not actually a proof against this “I was shown” statement of EGW.


If ALL time prophecy ended in 1844, another time prophecy after 1844 in the Bible would prove the Spirit of Prophecy to be in error. Wrong. It would prove a common misinterpretation of the SOP to be in error. The most common examples are the 1260, 1290, and 1335-days in Daniel that the Spirit of prophecy clearly state relate to the last days - after 1844. But when people explain away the obvious to cling to the things that they have been taught and believe, no amount of evidence will change their private interpretations.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project


Also these already cited, many other SOP quotes in this regard, (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.) clearly show that EGW was copiously, consistently and unequivocally clear on this issue, even rebuking those in her time who went against it.


Consider just one proof you offer above "They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. {2SM 73.2}" The problem was not prophetic time. These people were rebuked for reinterpreting the 2300-days and recalculating the end of the 2300-days to change the waymark from 1844 to 1884.

The proof that you offer is out of context and does not relate to the topic as you are attempting to have it.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

(See e.g., in this blog post [Note #4 and/or Search for “Brother Hewit”]) Indeed, though she spoke of many time fulfillments which she even expected for her time, she never made an exposition on time elements, indeed namely, the 1290 & 1335 days.

Indeed it makes all the sense in the world why God would make a direct revelation to EGW about this, given the normative, even logical, likelihood of involving time element in future fulfillments.


The case of Brother Hewit may prove that all prophetic time did not stop in 1844. He was teaching errors. Was he teaching that the 1335 were in the past and Ellen White rebuked him stating that he was wrong? Or was her rebuke that they had ended?

"We told him [Brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.--Letter 28, 1850, pp. 1-3 (To "The Church in Brother Hastings' House," November 7, 1850.) {5MR 203.2}" See what Ellen says:

Originally Posted By: EGW

May the Lord help you to understand His Word. If you will heed and practise this Word, you will become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Let our ministers and teachers seek knowledge from the one true source. Let them seek the Lord with much prayer, earnestly searching His Word to find the hidden treasure. Now, just now [1907], is the golden opportunity to understand the truths of the Word, and let this opportunity be improved by all. Let the book of Daniel be read, and its instruction heeded. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 8}
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days [EGW quotes this promise in 1907 long after 1844]. But go thou (Daniel) thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 9}

63-years after 1844 EGW places the 1335-days in the present or future.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Daniel is today [1907] standing in his lot, and we are to give him place to speak to the people. Our message is to go forth as a lamp that burneth. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 10}
These words present the work that we are to do in these last days. We are not one-half awake. We have not the power that is essential to the doing of the work that must be done. We must come into life, come into union. Now, just now, we must stand in that position where repentance and pardon shall be the striking features of our work. There must be no quarrelling. It is too late to engage with Satan in his work of blinding eyes. It is too late to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 11}


In EGW's comment above she clearly stated in 1907 that it was time to understand the 1335-days as Daniel was TODAY standing in his lot. And she linked the context of the 1235-days to Michael's standing in the LAST DAYS. She is consistent:
Originally Posted By: EGW

In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" [Daniel 12:1-4].--Manuscript 50, 1893, September, 1893. (MR 900.33) {1SAT 226.1}


Originally Posted By: His child
The Bible is true and the Spirit of Prophecy agrees with it. But human beings that did not understand the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy have erroneously added a private interpretation: a teaching that has crept into the church as if it were truth.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The errors that crept into the early church...have never been extinct. They are peculiarly active at the present time, constituting one of the perils of the last days. And God requires us to stand...unflinchingly for the truth. With the love of the truth burning in our hearts, we shall “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.” (ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15)


Originally Posted By: EGW
These errors ... although they be hoary with age, yet they have not behind them a “Thus saith the Lord.” For the Lord has said, I will not “alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.” …The Lord has permitted still greater light to shine in these last days ... revealing His law and showing us what is truth. (FE 450.1)

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

These SOP quotes are taken out of their context. You are making them seem like EGW is ‘rebuking the error of not make prophetic time interpretation after 1844' when that is not at all what she was saying nor referring to as “error”. Therefore this is a patent SOP “proof text”

In ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15 she is referring to doctrinal errors in the Early NT Church During Paul’s and John time. There was not even a notion or understanding of how to interpret time prophecies then.

In FE 450.1, indeed as seen in the opening sentence of that paragraph that you left out she says: “Great light was given to the Reformers, but many of them received the sophistry of error through misinterpretation of the Scriptures.” Thus she is referring to errors from the time of these Reformers. And as the work of these Reformers went on to make understood the interpretation of time elements in Bible prophecies, she surely, especially in your view, is not saying that this was one of the pointed errors that been passed on to the, actually distinct Remnant Church. Indeed she, writing this in 1897 (see SpTEd 154.1) is speaking about Catholic and Protestant Churches (not including of course, the SDA Church).


Error is error. The context of the quotes is that they rebuke error. If another error creeps into the church after the first is rebuked the rebuke is still valid for the new error as it was for the older error. Your argument is that because you do not believe that the teaching that you hold dear is in error that it cannot be rebuked as such. But since it is in error the rebuke is valid.

Originally Posted By: EGW
“At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines.” 3SM 31.4


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133896
05/31/11 09:51 AM
05/31/11 09:51 AM
His child  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: His child
Ezra arrived at Jerusalem 19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC
From Yom Kippur 457 BC 2300-years extend to Yom Kippur 1844


Although I would generally agree with the fundamental principle that God’s prophecies do applicably and purposely speak in at least some part to every generation of believers since they are given, and thus Ezra would have been motivated by his understanding and reckoning of Daniel’s 2300 day prophecy, to seek to effectuate a Return in order to “beautify” the, by then, already rebuilt temple and make it fully functional (Ezra 7:12-20ff), among other granted powers, I have a technical problem with you claiming that he arrived in Jerusalem 19 days before Yom Kippur. As you had quoted, the Bible says he arrived on the First day of the 5th Month (Ezra 7:8b) the Day of Atonement was on the 10th day of the 7th Month (Lev 16:29). With the Hebrew lunar calender then having ca. 30 days per month, there was ca. 70 days between Ezra’s arrival and the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)!??


Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133897
05/31/11 10:39 AM
05/31/11 10:39 AM
His child  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related [url=]Youtube clip[/url] for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?


Interesting questions.

1) the implementation of the mark of the beast will involve a mechanism yet to be known to control buying and selling it is something that God warns us not to " receive" Yes Sabbath is the issue, but there is a mechanism as well

2)Mr Obama is the leader of America, the last nation identified in the Spirit of prophecy that will persecute God's people

3)2007 is the year that I began giving the loud cry

The video in question was a complementary gift that a man put together to go along with my audio sound track that I wrote.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Has the General Conference Fallen?
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New Light; The Ten Horns of Rev 17
by His child. 02/19/20 07:17 AM
Will Trump Pass The Sunday Law?
by His child. 02/16/20 11:01 PM
When Does Satan Impersonate Christ?
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Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy
by His child. 02/14/20 05:40 AM
What is the daily in Daniel 8:11?
by Rick H. 02/11/20 08:42 AM
Pantheism Alert!
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Like a CORPSE
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