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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: His child] #133898
05/31/11 02:03 PM
05/31/11 02:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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His Child, I am totally convinced you will be as disappointed as was Harold Camping. When President Obama and Pope Benedict leave office before Jesus returns I hope you will not give up on Jesus.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: His child] #133901
05/31/11 02:20 PM
05/31/11 02:20 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

There is no such thing as the 5th month of the king's reign. The referrence is to the year of the king's reign and the month of the year. The Babylonian and the Hebrew calendar were similar; that's why the Jews, after the Babylonian captivity, adopted the Babylonian names for their months.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: JAK] #133908
05/31/11 02:56 PM
05/31/11 02:56 PM
K
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Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: kland
Maybe you or JAK could help interpret that chart.


kland, I'm not sure why you would reference me on this point, as I do not recall ever posting to this thread.

Sorry, meant NJK.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Mountain Man] #133911
05/31/11 03:15 PM
05/31/11 03:15 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: NJK
We are to obey and discern the signs, not set dates and/or act only because of time reckonings. The ironic thing is that, since the Bible/SOP is clear that there will be no time involved in Eschatological fulfillments, those looking to set times will misguide themselves. E.g., they’ll put off the second coming 3.5 year after the start of some clear event, while Jesus may return in 2 months after that, or 8 years after that.

I agree with this.

I also agree.

I also agree. For the most part. But no one here is setting a date for Jesus to come. And what if when this "clear event" begins, it will be too late for those who already have an opportunity to know, yet refuse? There is no "putting off".

This is why we need to understand the character of God. If we look at Him seeking whom He may destroy, then it's easy to believe He has some arbitrary secret date for the closing of probation and goes, ah ha, you are lost. You missed the cutoff point, too bad. But if we look at Him coming to save as many who are willing, could it be there is no magic cutoff date, but is it possible that the close of probation is different for different people? That is, for those who are hard set and stubborn, when some "clear event" happens, their probation has already closed, but for those who had not yet had the opportunity to know, their probation closes when they make their decision after the persecution starts?

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: kland] #133933
05/31/11 05:27 PM
05/31/11 05:27 PM
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The book that was sealed was not the book of Revelation, but that portion of the prophecy of Daniel which related to the last days. The Scripture says, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4). When the book was opened, the proclamation was made, "Time shall be no longer." (See Revelation 10:6.) The book of Daniel is now unsealed, and the revelation made by Christ to John is to come to all the inhabitants of the earth. By the increase of knowledge a people is to be prepared to stand in the latter days. {2SM 105.1}

Quote:
In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified,
and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}
Quote:
Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witness in the world. By their fulfilment in these last days, they will explain themselves. {KC 105.2}

If Ellen White is writing after 1843, and if there are prophecies somewhere in Daniel which should be understood and witness to the world, and will be fulfilled in these last days, which part of Daniel would she be speaking about? Ellen White said it was the vision of the last days when Daniel inquired, what shall be the end of these things. If the last days were done before she wrote this, how could it be fulfilled in the future?

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: His child] #133952
06/01/11 12:49 AM
06/01/11 12:49 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted By: SOP 7BC 971.7
“This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.


His child: Many miss the context which should precede the advent of our Lord and read that statement to say: This time, which the angel declares...is...the end...of prophetic time. But a careful study of the Bible proves that prophetic time can be followed in both Daniel and Revelation after 1844.

NJK: I don’t see this response as being indicative nor conclusive of your point that prophetic time should be reckoned after 1844. Perhaps you think that the phrase: “which should precede the advent of our Lord” means ‘the time until/up to when Jesus actually returns,’ but that view would be/is refuted by the fact that, as recorded in 1MR 100.1, EGW made that statement in 1900 [=Ms 59, 1900, pp. 8, 9. ("Jots and Tittles, II," August 16, 1900.)], thus 56 years after 1844. Moreover, quite clearly in that statement, she understood this include all time period shorter than ‘the longest of those times’, namely the 2300 days.

His child: The phrase THE prophetic time (or the prophetic period, which has virtually the same meaning in the Spirit of Prophecy): the context is that it “must reach to the fall of the year 1844.” (CET 50.1) “We were looking for the Savior to come in 1844.” (HS 213.2) “…The prophetic period which was to extend to the coming of Christ.” (DA 98.4) In almost every instance where the Spirit of Prophecy mentions the prophetic time, the context links it to the definite time of Christ’s Advent in 1844: not time prophecies in general. In context, EGW is saying: the people will not have another message upon the definite time of Christ’s Advent after 1844. Yet when prophetic time is wrenched from its true meaning, the consensus among Seventh-day Adventists has become that all time prophecies stopped in 1844. Her words are read as: This time, which the angel declares... is...the end...of prophetic time.


From what I have read EGW did understand “the prophetic time” synonymously with the singular “prophetic period”, however I see that the plural “prophetic periods” refers to the group of prophecies reaching into the 1798-1843-1844 periods as reckoned by William Miller and all included in his chart.

It must be specified that in DA 98.4 she is using the term prophetic period to refer pointed to the 70 Weeks portion of the 2300 days (cf. CET 50.1; GC 351.1) as she fully says:

Originally Posted By: SOP DA 98.4
the prophetic period which was to extend to the coming of Christ. The knowledge that the end of this period was near had moved Zacharias to pray for the Messiah's advent.


So I understand EGW’s mention of specific/singular mentions of the/this prophetic time/period to be a pointed reference to the 70 Weeks/2300 days, but a general/plural “prophetic time/periods” mention to be in regards to all

Originally Posted By: SOP EW 243.2
Jesus did not come to the earth as the waiting, joyful company expected, to cleanse the sanctuary by purifying the earth by fire. I saw that they were correct in their reckoning of the prophetic periods; prophetic time closed in 1844, and Jesus entered the most holy place to cleanse the sanctuary at the ending of the days.


This is understanding surfacely may seem to be contradicted by her statement that:

Originally Posted By: SOP 1MR 100.1
This time which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.


However, as stated before, the fact that she points out “the longest reckoning” here logically indicates that she had more than one time prophecy in mind. So as she lumps them in with the 2300 days, indeed both “the longest” and the only one reaching to 1844, then it is clear to me that all time prophecies are included.

Quote:
His child:The view that all prophetic time stopped in 1844 makes the Spirit of Prophecy contradict the Scriptures.

NJK: From even just your quoted EGW statement above I don’t see this to be true. Also what “Scripture” are you referring to. To say that you “believe” that the time element in a Bible prophecy will be fulfilled in the future, or even, has recently been fulfilled, is not actually a proof against this “I was shown” statement of EGW.

His child: If ALL time prophecy ended in 1844, another time prophecy after 1844 in the Bible would prove the Spirit of Prophecy to be in error. Wrong. It would prove a common misinterpretation of the SOP to be in error. The most common examples are the 1260, 1290, and 1335-days in Daniel that the Spirit of prophecy clearly state relate to the last days - after 1844. But when people explain away the obvious to cling to the things that they have been taught and believe, no amount of evidence will change their private interpretations.


My question was, where in the Scripture is it being taught that there will be prophetic time after 1844? I.e., contra what EGW, as I see it, meant that the statement in Rev 10:6 meant and fully involved. As I understand this, this means that even if a prophecy is to be refulfilled, or even fulfilled at a first instance after 1844, if it contains a definite time, then that time is not to be reckoned. The prophetic message itself still applies, but its time element is of no application or consequence.

Also I don’t see your subsequent argument as being objectively conclusive because one would have to first think that EGW didn’t mean ‘all time prophecies’ in her statements. So the issue remains with independently clearly demonstrating that, as you are claiming here: EGW taught that: “the 1260, 1290, and 1335-days in Daniel ... relate to the last days - after 1844.”

Also my Theology allows for Christ to have returned very shortly after 1844, even within a year. So there would not have been any conceivable opportunity to claim that the 1260, 1290 1335 days should/could be refulfilled. That only became seen as a possibility as time, was prolonged way beyond the 1844 date and the supposed to be soon fulfilled “Great time of Trouble” (Dan 12:1) never began to materialize date. So people during that prolonging time then began making new and literal reckonings of the times in Dan 12 as their prior ends did not dovetail into the expect soon prophetic consummation. As I understand it, it was pointed against such practices that EGW was instructed to make her statements against the use/reckoning of any prophetic time/period from those 1844 days onward.

Quote:
NJK: Also these already cited, many other SOP quotes in this regard, (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.) clearly show that EGW was copiously, consistently and unequivocally clear on this issue, even rebuking those in her time who went against it.

His child: Consider just one proof you offer above "They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. {2SM 73.2}" The problem was not prophetic time. These people were rebuked for reinterpreting the 2300-days and recalculating the end of the 2300-days to change the waymark from 1844 to 1884.


Where are you reading/seeing that these people specifically had the 2300 days in mind here? I don’t see this anywhere in the statement’s context.

As I said, I see that this statement by EGW is great proof that she understood “definite time” to involve more than only the time of the 2300 days. It is speaking of probationary time. Which could easily mean, as it manifestly/intuitively does, a claimed 40 year probation from October [22], 1844 to October 1884. That is, the Bible has many examples of God using “40", inherently probationary, years, even days, before executing/or finish execution a previously declared judgement. That is seen in:

-Israel’s declared 40 years of waaderings until all the guilty/responsible ones died off,
-40 years of Jeremiah’s warning ministry until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians
-40 days until Nineveh was to be destroyed
-ca. 40 years from the time of Christ’s pronouncement of judgement on Jerusalem until it occurred starting in 66 A.D. and completed by 70 A.D.

In all of these periods, there was some form of involved mercy/probation:

-Israel’s 40 Wilderness years was a merciful killing vs. the instantaneous one that had been considered.
-The people of Judah and Jerusalem could have repented and been forgiven under Jeremiah’s preaching
-God granted pardon to Nineveh when they repented, as Jonah himself always knew was a possibility, indeed the likeliest thing to occur with God
-many Jews were saved as they converted to Christianity in the time from Christ’s pronouncement until that judgement came

So it is easy to see that these people in EGW’s day were using this period of 40, deemed applicably as “years” by them to claim that God was allowing a probation of 40 years until he would complete the Second Coming Advent/Judgement. And as EGW met them in Camp Meeting in manifestly 1884, then they were probably SDA’s and probably also accepted the light on the Shut Door that revealed that probation had only been “shut” for those who in ca. 1844 had great light on the Midnight Cry but rejected it. Others who did not have such light still had their probation opened. So these people were probably claiming that this allowed probation would timely come to an end in October 1884.

Originally Posted By: His child
The proof that you offer is out of context and does not relate to the topic as you are attempting to have it.


For the many reasons stated in this thread, including the discussion of each of those statements, and also the present ones in this post, then I see that they are “exegetically” sound (i.e., with all pertinent/contributive things considered) in regards to what EGW actually meant.

Quote:
NJK: (See e.g., in this blog post [Note #4 and/or Search for “Brother Hewit”]) Indeed, though she spoke of many time fulfillments which she even expected for her time, she never made an exposition on time elements, indeed namely, the 1290 & 1335 days.

NJK: Indeed it makes all the sense in the world why God would make a direct revelation to EGW about this, given the normative, even logical, likelihood of involving time element in future fulfillments.

His child: The case of Brother Hewit may prove that all prophetic time did not stop in 1844. He was teaching errors. Was he teaching that the 1335 were in the past and Ellen White rebuked him stating that he was wrong? Or was her rebuke that they had ended? "We told him [Brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.--Letter 28, 1850, pp. 1-3 (To "The Church in Brother Hastings' House," November 7, 1850.) {5MR 203.2}"


For the linguistic and logical statements made in that post, indeed still being determined by what I understand EGW’s post-1844 view to be on prophetic time in general, I think that she meant that ‘he should have been teaching that “the 1335 days were ended”’. As I see it, as shown below, EGW only drew out the symbolic/typical involved in the 1335 days as the relatively short period of time when the Last Plagues and other signs would come as the antichrist power was deposed of and judged.

Originally Posted By: His child
See what Ellen says:

Originally Posted By: SOP AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 8-9
May the Lord help you to understand His Word. If you will heed and practise this Word, you will become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Let our ministers and teachers seek knowledge from the one true source. Let them seek the Lord with much prayer, earnestly searching His Word to find the hidden treasure. Now, just now [1907], is the golden opportunity to understand the truths of the Word, and let this opportunity be improved by all. Let the book of Daniel be read, and its instruction heeded. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 8}
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days [EGW quotes this promise in 1907 long after 1844]. But go thou (Daniel) thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 9}


His child: 63-years after 1844 EGW places the 1335-days in the present or future.


It is also quite significant to me that EGW quote every word from this Dan 12:10-12, except for vs. 11 which speaks of the definite reckoning of the 1290 days. The 1335 days does not involve such specific indications of when it was to begin. Just an implied understanding that there would be a deliberate delay between the end of the beast power’s reign and authoritative oppositions and the time when “the end” would begin to be consummated. So the wise were here being encouraged to remain faithful and watchful through this extension of time. And as the formal and organized persecutions would have ended there, there may indeed have been a consideration to believe that the Second Coming would not occur and thus stop expecting it and also turn away from preparatory work for fully proclaiming it during this time. It is indeed human natural to think that the end is near during this of adversities and not during times of peace.

So as stated above, I see that she was only gleaning out the spiritual applications involved in those counsels. That symbolically includes the “blessing” for those who endure/remain faithful right through the significant type of the 1843 period. My understanding is that she did not see the 1335 as being literal or involving definite time, but being merely symbolic/exhortational, based upon the Historical lessons.

Originally Posted By: SOP AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 10-11
Daniel is today [1907] standing in his lot, and we are to give him place to speak to the people. Our message is to go forth as a lamp that burneth. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 10}
These words present the work that we are to do in these last days. We are not one-half awake. We have not the power that is essential to the doing of the work that must be done. We must come into life, come into union. Now, just now, we must stand in that position where repentance and pardon shall be the striking features of our work. There must be no quarrelling. It is too late to engage with Satan in his work of blinding eyes. It is too late to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 11}


As stated above, I see the expounding on these passages in Dan 12:1-4 to be merely exhortational and not to involve/or be seeking to involve the definite reckoning of time.

Quote:
His child: In EGW's comment above she clearly stated in 1907 that it was time to understand the 1335-days as Daniel was TODAY standing in his lot. And she linked the context of the 1235-days to Michael's standing in the LAST DAYS. She is consistent:

Originally Posted By: SOP 1SAT 225.5-226.1
In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" [Daniel 12:1-4].--Manuscript 50, 1893, September, 1893. (MR 900.33) {1SAT 226.1}


I still don’t see this to mean that any such times should be literally/definitely reckoned. Just that the message itself applies and these time elements, due to the Historical developments they point to, also greatly contribute to the comprehension of these spiritual/prophetic messages.

Quote:
His child: The Bible is true and the Spirit of Prophecy agrees with it. But human beings that did not understand the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy have erroneously added a private interpretation: a teaching that has crept into the church as if it were truth.

Originally Posted By: SOP ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15
The errors that crept into the early church...have never been extinct. They are peculiarly active at the present time, constituting one of the perils of the last days. And God requires us to stand...unflinchingly for the truth. With the love of the truth burning in our hearts, we shall “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.” (ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15)


Originally Posted By: SOP FE 450.1
These errors ... although they be hoary with age, yet they have not behind them a “Thus saith the Lord.” For the Lord has said, I will not “alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.” …The Lord has permitted still greater light to shine in these last days ... revealing His law and showing us what is truth. (FE 450.1)


NJK: These SOP quotes are taken out of their context. You are making them seem like EGW is ‘rebuking the error of not make prophetic time interpretation after 1844' when that is not at all what she was saying nor referring to as “error”. Therefore this is a patent SOP “proof text”

NJK: In ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15 she is referring to doctrinal errors in the Early NT Church During Paul’s and John time. There was not even a notion or understanding of how to interpret time prophecies then.

NJK: In FE 450.1, indeed as seen in the opening sentence of that paragraph that you left out she says: “Great light was given to the Reformers, but many of them received the sophistry of error through misinterpretation of the Scriptures.” Thus she is referring to errors from the time of these Reformers. And as the work of these Reformers went on to make understood the interpretation of time elements in Bible prophecies, she surely, especially in your view, is not saying that this was one of the pointed errors that been passed on to the, actually distinct Remnant Church. Indeed she, writing this in 1897 (see SpTEd 154.1) is speaking about Catholic and Protestant Churches (not including of course, the SDA Church).

His child: Error is error. The context of the quotes is that they rebuke error. If another error creeps into the church after the first is rebuked the rebuke is still valid for the new error as it was for the older error. Your argument is that because you do not believe that the teaching that you hold dear is in error that it cannot be rebuked as such. But since it is in error the rebuke is valid.


That what is innately involved in a “proof text”. One has to independently believe what they are claiming the text is corroborating. The only way your cited text support your view is what you are aiming to denounce is “error”. Otherwise they do not apply at all and certainly offer no evidence at all towards understanding EGW’s view on post 1844 prophetic time. So as you had not made your case, and I still see/think that you have not, then mentioning such error texts is really not “impressive” or influential at all in the discussion.

Originally Posted By: SOP 3SM 31.4
“At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines.” 3SM 31.4


Same comment as just above, for this cited EGW “error” quoting.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: His child] #133953
06/01/11 12:51 AM
06/01/11 12:51 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Quote:
His child: Ezra arrived at Jerusalem 19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC
From Yom Kippur 457 BC 2300-years extend to Yom Kippur 1844

NJK: Although I would generally agree with the fundamental principle that God’s prophecies do applicably and purposely speak in at least some part to every generation of believers since they are given, and thus Ezra would have been motivated by his understanding and reckoning of Daniel’s 2300 day prophecy, to seek to effectuate a Return in order to “beautify” the, by then, already rebuilt temple and make it fully functional (Ezra 7:12-20ff), among other granted powers, I have a technical problem with you claiming that he arrived in Jerusalem 19 days before Yom Kippur. As you had quoted, the Bible says he arrived on the First day of the 5th Month (Ezra 7:8b) the Day of Atonement was on the 10th day of the 7th Month (Lev 16:29). With the Hebrew lunar calender then having ca. 30 days per month, there was ca. 70 days between Ezra’s arrival and the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)!??

His child: Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.


I can appreciate/understand your gesture “thanking” to be humble/“honest” here, but all things considered, I am still wondering if you yourself had ever considered/used this “clarification” of yours here. Perhaps you had done so in your book, however, it is because, as shown below, it still does not amount to what the end dates you claim of: “19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC” (= ca. September 6) that I am seeing that something is still not accurate here.

As seen in the ATS study of the 70 Weeks by Brempong Owusu-Antwi (pp. 295-299), and as it is a historical fact, the Persians (as well as the Jews) reckoned the years of their kings after and accession year period until the calender start of their new year, if applicable, as almost (if not, literally) always, unless the previous king died on exactly the first day, (or would it have to be the day before) their calender’s New Year’s day. For the Persians, New Year’s day was on the First of Nisan (ca. March 15), (as it also was for the Jews, however the Jews reckoned the years of kings according to their fall-to-fall calender which started on Tishri 1 ca. October 15). So here are the possible reckonings for a “Fifth month of Artaxerxes 7th Year, including the fact that, as discussed by Owusu-Antwi, his predecessor Xerxes died on either Dec. 17 or 23/24 in 465 B.C. or Jan 2/3 464 B.C.

-All of these possible death dates, all mean that, for the Persians, Artaxerxes was in his accession, and “0" year from December 465 or January 464 until ca. March 15 (Nisan 1) 464. So his regnal years could only be:

1 - March 464 - March 463
2 - March 463 - March 462
3 - March 462 - March 461
4 - March 461 - March 460
5 - March 460 - March 459
6 - March 459 - March 458 7 - March 458 - March 457

So ‘his first to fifth regnal month’ in his seventh year as you claim would be from ca. March 15, 458 to July 15, 458. That is exactly the same as calender months given the actual Persian method.

To claim that the month began from the month of the death of the preceding king, would not only be in gross contradiction of attested Historical reckoning customs of the Persians, but would still not end up in the date that you claim as it would end on either April 17, 23/24 or May 2/3, and that in 458 B.C. from the following regnal years:

1 - December 465 - December 464
2 - December 464 - December 463
3 - December 463 - December 462
4 - December 462 - December 461
5 - December 461 - December 460
6 - December 460 - December 459
7 - December 459 - December 458

For the Jews, who, as proven, used their fall-to-fall calender, if these years were reckoned both according to that calender and not referring to the number of calender numbers, his pertinent regnal years would be:

1 - September 464 - September 463
2 - September 463 - September 462
3 - September 462 - September 461
4 - September 461 - September 460
5 - September 460 - September 459
6 - September 459 - September 458 7 - September 458 - September 457

And their reckoned date for Ezra’s trip would be from ca. September 15, 458 to January 15, 457 B.C.

If it was their Spring Calender the those supposedly regnal months were the same as their Calender month and thus also a ca. March 15, 457 to July 15, 457 journey.

So in no conceivable reckoning, even non attested ones is a end date of ca. September 6 (and thus started in ca. May 6)

So hence my, still remaining, and even deeper puzzlement in regards to your prophetic reckoning.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: His child] #133954
06/01/11 12:53 AM
06/01/11 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related Youtube clip for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?


His Child: Interesting questions.

1) the implementation of the mark of the beast will involve a mechanism yet to be known to control buying and selling it is something that God warns us not to " receive" Yes Sabbath is the issue, but there is a mechanism as well


Who says it is yet to be known? A barcode and microchip was showed. That is perfectly known and even utilized technologies. If the aim is to prevent buying and selling (perhaps pointedly ‘spending or making money, thus probably not bartering or ‘working for food and shelter’ (as “slaves”)), then the simple use of presenting an chip protected idea card or credit card with an associated fingerprint/biometric confirmation to buy or sell something should do it. Even if cash is used, the person taking your money would simply just have to validate the transaction by swiping/scanning that encrypted id and/or credit/debit card and confirming their identity. With computer inventories, as merchant can easily be audited to see if all his transactions were “legal”.

Sure a tattooed barcode or implanted chip would be simpler, but as they possibly could be either altered (i.e., a “buying & selling barring” tattoo erased completely and replaced with a copy of a permitting one) or switched (removing through precision and minimal surgery a “barring” chip and replacing it with a provided/lent “permitting one”, allowing for this minimal scarring to disappear and then literally stocking up on provisions before “returning” it) some kind of independent biometric confirmation of the person’s identity would still be required.

All this to say that (1) presently known technologies are sufficient to enforce the Mark of the Beast. And advance technology was to be crucial to the fulfillment of the Mark of the Beast, then how would it have been fulfilled in EGW’s time, as it could/should have and (2) why doesn’t EGW make indicative details of this in her writings.

Seems to me that this is just a popular notion of non-SDA’s in regards to the Mark of the Beast who indeed spiritually glibly think this is a literal marking and thus must be a barcode or microchip.

And what do you think would fulfill a ‘yet to be known mechanism’, which means to me nothing that exists today in any way? Of course, that claim would mean that we don’t know it yet, but my question is what (more) do you think it would technologically take to enforce the Mark of the Beast today or in the future? (Seriously suggested: “mind reading” abilities? And that even beyond the current ability to tangibly utilize one’s brain wave activity to control things.)

Originally Posted By: His child
2)Mr Obama is the leader of America, the last nation identified in the Spirit of prophecy that will persecute God's people


America will indeed serve to persecute God’s People however that Biblically does not make their President the Antichrist. The Bible is clear that the Second Beast is only acting as the pawn of the First Beast which is and solely and distinctly is, the antichrist. (See Rev 13:12-17). That is all what is symbolically depicted in Rev 17 as a woman (Apostate Church & antichrist) riding a beast (a controlled civil power).

Originally Posted By: His child
3)2007 is the year that I began giving the loud cry


Does the Loud Cry period figure as part of your definitely reckoned time, which I assume are all within the literal range of 3.5-3.7years/1260-1335 days? Is yes, then how does the by now, up to 4-4.5+ years/1461-1641+ days fit into your prophetic scenario??

As I also prophetically understand it, this would imply that the Sealing, Shaking and also the Latter Rain events would have already transpired in the Church. What’s precisely your view in this regards? (I.e./E.g., partial, spiritual and/or personal fulfillments vs. full, quite manifest and corporal fulfillements).

Originally Posted By: His child
The video in question was a complementary gift that a man put together to go along with my audio sound track that I wrote.


Is/Was he an SDA? His here cited ‘words/themes to pictures’ associations/identifications don’t suggest so.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133955
06/01/11 12:54 AM
06/01/11 12:54 AM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Quote:
His child: Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

Rosangela: There is no such thing as the 5th month of the king's reign. The referrence is to the year of the king's reign and the month of the year. The Babylonian and the Hebrew calendar were similar; that's why the Jews, after the Babylonian captivity, adopted the Babylonian names for their months.


On top of the reasons I have posted showing that the reckoning in general is not valid (Post #133953), I also do not see that the claim here from this single verse is conclusive of His child’s claim of “regnal months”, indeed for reasons of being variously both Biblically and Historically “unattested”.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: kland] #133956
06/01/11 12:55 AM
06/01/11 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
I also agree. For the most part. But no one here is setting a date for Jesus to come. And what if when this "clear event" begins, it will be too late for those who already have an opportunity to know, yet refuse? There is no "putting off".


As I understand it, the only way that this occurs is through the fact that the close of probation for SDA’s will occur before the one for the rest of the world. I can only see that this will be during the Sealing of the Church which will be followed by the Shaking. My view in general is that SDA’s have not been advancing with the increasing prophetic light all revolving around the deeper meaning of God’s Sabbath (Isa 58) and its corresponding implications to the Mark of the Beast issue. So while SDA’s think they have it all figured out and e.g., only need to look for the literal passing of a law opposing the letter of the law aspect of the Sabbath, they will miss the actually paramount Spiritual/Fuller Implications and related prophetic developments.

In regards to “putting off”, even only involving non-spiritual/letter-of-the-law predictions as done in EGW’s writings, (though she laid the foundation for the Spiritual understandings. It just was not a present truth for her and her generation), if one has the view that ‘3.5 years of persecution’ must pass before Jesus can return then they obviously not expect him to Return before that. So they are susceptible to miss some “signs” which won’t necessarily be that obvious, if these do not harmonize with their time. False Biblical interpretations/beliefs always lead to some kind of wrong, event fatally deceptive application. That’s what happen to William Miller and led him to reject other more Biblical understandings, and though he will be saved, in the last days, such errors will surely be fully exploited by Satan within his planned overmastering delusion.

Also if Christ returns before that claimed 3.5 years has expired then what was the point at all of having figured out any time.

It is however most crucial in regards to period that extend beyond this believed 3.5 years because people can then easily abandon the faith when they see that their expected time has come and gone and nothing happened. Indeed they had looked for some event in the past to start that reckoning and really would only begin to consider that they had been wrong after 3.5 years had passed. So in that passing time they naturally would have rejected any other movement/sign and could there crucially reject the true light.

And as I said before, calculating a time for the persecution as 3.5 years/1260 days, which Historically was not actually an entire period of persecutions and thus would likewise also not be even in a definite time refulfillment, then if, as in history, persecutions end before that calculated time runs out, yet the end is not yet/immediate but some extra time is allowed to pass, that also would crucially throw off those who have a ‘definite’ and ‘full persecution, 3.5 year time’ belief/interpretation.

And as further seen in Christ’s only sign mention in Matt 16:1-4, because the Spiritual themes involved were not understood, even the specific time hinted by Jesus did not serve to help save most in that generation. In fact that time was also cut short from a potential full 72 hours over 3 full days to ca. 36 hours over parts of 3 inclusive days. Knowing Christ “message” and truth was paramount over even definite time. I think that the same thing will occur in the end.

Originally Posted By: kland
This is why we need to understand the character of God. If we look at Him seeking whom He may destroy, then it's easy to believe He has some arbitrary secret date for the closing of probation and goes, ah ha, you are lost. You missed the cutoff point, too bad. But if we look at Him coming to save as many who are willing, could it be there is no magic cutoff date,


All throughout the Bible, as indicated by EGW on the topic of the close of probation/shut doors, it always occurs without being precisely known by those affected. Even for completely unaware non-believers. (E.g., LDE 229-231; cf. Matt 24:38, 39ff; ) So then how much more for people who should have been looking to this fulfillment. It is God himself who characterizes his coming as a thief and leaves the responsibility to any person willing to be save to make sure, of themselves that this is not the case for them (1 Thess 5:2-8 = Rev 3:3; 16:15), and that even if it is not God’s will that those genuine believers be lost (1 Thess 5:9, 10).

Also it is what the Bible teaches that dictate what the character of God is/fully entails and not what one may want to see or thinks is to be the case. So in this case, God would see it as perfect and just, for reasons of righteousness by (genuine) faith to not tell someone when their probation will close, or has close, lest they put of repentance until that time and only bother/strive to live righteously only after that time has passed.

Originally Posted By: kland
but is it possible that the close of probation is different for different people?


I am of the Biblical/SOP understanding that probation “sectionally” closes only on whole groups and not individuals. In this case first SDA’s , the rest of the World (both Christians and non-Christians). There indeed always only are two groups in any such Shut-Doors/Close of Probations.

Originally Posted By: kland
That is, for those who are hard set and stubborn, when some "clear event" happens, their probation has already closed, but for those who had not yet had the opportunity to know, their probation closes when they make their decision after the persecution starts?


The close of probation on a group always occurs in relation to the amount of light/warning they had been given. So with non-SDA’s it will collectively come only after the incontrovertible light of the Loud Cry has been given. It surely can come after the persecution of the righteous start, with then joining the ranks of the righteous, but that would not at all involve, or be due to, any reckoned time element.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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