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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: kland] #133957
06/01/11 12:56 AM
06/01/11 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
If Ellen White is writing after 1843, and if there are prophecies somewhere in Daniel which should be understood and witness to the world, and will be fulfilled in these last days, which part of Daniel would she be speaking about? Ellen White said it was the vision of the last days when Daniel inquired, what shall be the end of these things. If the last days were done before she wrote this, how could it be fulfilled in the future?


Perhaps my recently posted comments above have answered that related question.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133969
06/01/11 05:03 PM
06/01/11 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

There is no such thing as the 5th month of the king's reign. The referrence is to the year of the king's reign and the month of the year. The Babylonian and the Hebrew calendar were similar; that's why the Jews, after the Babylonian captivity, adopted the Babylonian names for their months.


Thank you for the excellent feedback. I wish we had had this conversation sooner, but it is always great to get a new perspective so that things do not get missed or misunderstood.

Since there are 2300-days from the beginning of the reign or Artaxexes to the time that Ezra arrived at Jerusalem with 19-days to spare, and it fits the known prophetic time line I had no need to study that point further. But now that I have these additional facts, is there an event in Artaxeses' first year that links to the beginning of the 2300-days instead of his inauguration?

Thank you


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133973
06/01/11 05:59 PM
06/01/11 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
kland,

...I don't believe all prophecies apply to the past - I'm not a preterist. My view is Historicism - which means that all prophecies are fulfilled within history. Of course human history is still in progress, so there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. Now, if you ask me if I believe that there are still time prophecies to be fulfilled, I'll tell you I don't. Why? Simply because I don't believe this world will last long enough for another 1260 (or 1290, or 1335) years to fulfill a prophecy. I do distinguish between Historicism and tradition, but you don't seem to distinguish between Historicism and ecleticism. Within Historicism, all prophecies are interpreted within the pattern of a day for a year. Now, if you don't see anything wrong in arbitrarily interpreting prophecies in some instances as a day for a year, and in other instances as a day for a day, what else can I say? However, you should be aware that the pattern you are following is not a historicist one, but an ecleticist one.


I find no instruction in the Word of God, the Bible, or the Spirit of prophecy that commands that a particular pattern of biblical interpretation is to dictate our biblical understanding.

If Historicism (or any other...)is a pattern, model or framework that serves like an outline to help us conceptualize prophecies that span centuries, its structure is a tool to assist in the process of understanding (like a catalyst). Historicism is not the prophecy, nor is it infallible.

The word of God gives a day for a year in Ezekiel's prophecy. Then Ezekiel's generation is linked to the desecration of the Temple. Thus the day for a year is linked to the cleansing of the Sanctuary - restoring that which has been defiled.

A day for a day is regular time. A day for year is "longtime."

In Revelation 10 in the setting of the little book of Daniel being opened and the 1844 disappointment, it is declared "Time shall be no longer." Immediately after that declaration, there are instances of prophetic time cited in Revelation 11 and beyond.

Prior to 1844 these periods of time cited in Revelation 11 and beyond were in the day for a year context (long time). After 1844 when these prophetic periods have their final fulfillment, they are not long time because time shall be no longer; therefore they are in real time. They are identifiable and they are linked to literal events that can be historically confirmed.

Thus if Historicism as a pattern is to be of any use in the endtime, it has to allow all the elements within a given prophecy to function as the Lord intended rather than to force the prophecy to change so that it fits the pattern.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: kland] #133974
06/01/11 06:13 PM
06/01/11 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
Since Mrs. White places "these last days" after 1844, and Daniel 12 is linked to the rivers, it follows that EVERYTHING in Daniel 12 "from God was given especially for these last days." Thus the 1260 in Daniel 12 is not applicable to the 538-1798 events that are fixed historically before 1844.

And the 1260, 1290 and 1335 in Daniel 12 cannot be understood after 1844 in the context of a day for a year and still apply to the last days (sometime beyond 1844). From any date after 1844, the 1260-years would extend beyond 3104AD.
Besides making reasonable sense, do you see there any other reason why Daniel 12 is literal days instead of symbolic days?


Sin is limited to a 6000-year duration on earth. In vision, after the saints were in heaven it was said:
Originally Posted By: EGW

For six thousand years Satan has struggled to maintain possession of the earth. Now God's original purpose in its creation is accomplished. "The saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." {AH 539.3}


And in my study of the Bible, Spirit of Prophecy, and history, I have learned that they have been fulfilled in recent history. Christ's Advent is even at the door.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133975
06/01/11 08:02 PM
06/01/11 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related Youtube clip for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?


Some further internet searching has answered my questions here:

Obviously His Child/Henry Hills believes that Barack Obama is the antichrist and that his full name, through some creative arbitrary convolution fulfills the 666 ‘number of his name’ claim. Wow!!! to say the least. (Hear these (what I consider) unbiblical teachings and much more in this radio interview ca. 37:20ff. (See also this one). The convoluted conjecture of a supposed reversed Alpha and Omega to make Presidents Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II be four kings of Daniel is really creative!

-By the way the link to the Youtube clip was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBxmDkhOXNE

For “distinguishing” clarification, my understanding of the possible refulfillment of prophecies involved a spiritual deepening/involvement of the prior literal fulfillments and not to an complete new and distinct identification. That first occurred between the Local Fulfillments and then the Historical ones, and now with Historical Ones and the current and future Eschatological Ones.


It is clear from Daniel that the wise will understand, so I have no illusion that everyone will understand the word of God or even look at truth more than a superficial glance. There is very little here that I have not already posted on this forum

Re: "Revelation 13 the 7 heads on the papal beast"

I think I started

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=126838

Some of the posts are redundant, but the content is worthy of consideration if you don't get lost in the dialog.

Not to long ago a U S Secretary of Something or other was fired for making racist comments. After the fact, it was learned that her comments in the 30-second soundbite had been taken out of context and that she was actually deploring racism in her remarks.

Similarly your comments above are an abridged version of a study that has taken almost 20-years and is still on-going. If you understood it, you most certainly would have presented it differently.

But since God called me to study and He has preserved and led me all the way, He will get the Present Truth to those that are the called and chosen. The book cover of my latest book might interest you.

On 27 April 2011 a killer tornado decapitated the roof of my house that the Lord gave back to the bank a few months earlier. You can read the story online here is the link

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/echoes-of-doomsday/15838912#

click preview under the blue book "Echoes of Doomsday"
Then use the arrow keys at the top to go to the text


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Daryl] #133976
06/01/11 08:53 PM
06/01/11 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Daryl F
It is my understanding that the time prophecies do not have a dual application and are also not conditional prophecies.


Hi Daryl,

That misunderstanding is common among SDA's

Originally Posted By: EGW
In the Revelation are portrayed the deep things of God. The very name given to its inspired pages, "the Revelation," contradicts the statement that this is a sealed book. A revelation is something revealed. The Lord Himself revealed to His servant the mysteries contained in this book, and He designs that they shall be open to the study of all. Its truths are addressed to those living in the last days of this earth's history, as well as to those living in the days of John. Some of the scenes depicted in this prophecy are in the past, some are now taking place; some bring to view the close of the great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven, and some reveal the triumphs and joys of the redeemed in the earth made new. {AA 584.1}


Originally Posted By: EGW
Study the Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated. We must be true and faithful amid the abounding iniquity that prevails. At no period of time are we in such danger as when prosperity seems to crown our efforts. Self must be hidden in God. We are living amid the perils of the last days, and many are insensible to the perils that threaten our world. We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know. "Watch, and pray," said Jesus, "for ye know not when the time is." "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of Man cometh at an hour when ye think not." {SpTA07 55.1}


Originally Posted By: EGW
In the history of nations the student of God's word may behold the literal fulfillment of divine prophecy. {CC 250.4}


Originally Posted By: EGW

All these symbolical representations serve a double purpose. From them God's people learn not only that the physical forces of the earth are under the control of the Creator, but also that under His control are the religious movements of the nations. ...Those who read the Scriptures with an intense desire to know what the Spirit saith unto the churches, know that God lives and reigns. {19MR 281.3}
In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}


Note that EGW clearly states "Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.]" Revelation 13:5 is - "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

As the 42-months were fulfilled in the 1260-years between 538-1798, EGW clearly states that the final fulfillment will be in the last days.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Daryl] #133977
06/01/11 09:04 PM
06/01/11 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Daryl F
I don't see this as a time prophecy in the same sense as I see the time prophecies of the 70 weeks, 1260 days, 2300 days, etc.



In Put-Out the Light I explain the 70-week prophecy in the endtime, 4 applications for the 2300-days/years (we don't know when they end the last time that is marked by Jesus standing when He has cleansed the sanctuary and states it is done!). And locate the very day of the anointing of the counterfeit prince of the Covenant. Of course now that I understand the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and the 1260, 1290, and the 1335 Days, I need to up date the text. But it is cutting edge as is compared to the pablum that is out there. Should have told you about it yesterday. The publisher had a 25% discount in May.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133978
06/01/11 09:12 PM
06/01/11 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.

Mark, as I said, in Num. 14:34, 40 days is the prophecy and 40 years, the fulfillment. The same is true in Ezek. 4. 390/40 days is the prophecy and 390/40 years is the fulfillment. There is no inversion.


Interesting observation. Have you figured out where the 390/40 met it fulfillment yet?

In the Bible Amplified book on Ezekiel, the author states that it is still a mystery.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133980
06/01/11 09:29 PM
06/01/11 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
The strongest Biblical/Spiritual evidence that the time elements in prophecies will not be literally fulfilled after 1844 is what God directly “told/showed” to EGW. Indeed, this was given as direct light on what is to be understood in the statement in Rev 10:6b. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall from the SOP anytime when a Biblical passage was directly, and so pointedly interpreted by God. Just think of all the debate that would have saved during the 1888 issue if that had been so pointedly and timely done then. So either here EGW is lying in her many statements claiming this direct revelation (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.), or what she said is indeed the explicit, injunctively stated will of God. I do not understand why you continue in your claim, which is based merely on supposition which have actually shown to be invalid by Rosangela’s point (cf. e.g., Post #133653), and just ignore/not address those clear direct revelation statements by EGW. To me you are only acting against clear Biblical, Spiritual and Prophetic ‘(God-stipulated) Law, Testimony and Light.’ (=Isa 8:20).


To misinterpret EGW and declare that EGW stated there are no time prophecies after 1844 is to make her contradict herself and the Bible. She gives two examples of time prophecies that are to come about after 1844. I will site the easiest to see:
Re: no prophetic time after 1844

Ellen white is giving an example of prophetic time being repeated in the last days after 1844. So she cannot be saying there is no prophetic time after 1844 since she is giving an example that includes a time that she has also said was fulfilled 538-1798.
Originally Posted By: EGW

In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months....

The proof texts cited from EGW to prove that she contradicts herself are out of context - pretexts.

The 2SM 73 (1885) passage is a rebuke to those that are reinterpreting the 2300-days to make them end in 1884. Thus they are moving the pins and waymarks of Bible prophecy.

The 10MR 270 passage in context is correcting an error "The world placed all time-proclamation on the same level" when EGW gave the correct view. Then she clearly links her statement of time prophecy specifically to the day and hour of Christ's appearing. The context clearly differentiates between the world's view of ALL TIME PROPHECY and time prophecy that sets the day and hour of Christ's Coming. "We have not cast away our confidence [because of the 1844 disappointment], neither have we a message dependent upon definite time [our proclamation of the Second Advent is Bible truth not one that is dependent on knowing the exact day and hour of His appearing], but we are waiting and watching unto prayer, looking for and loving the appearing of our Saviour, and doing all in our power for the preparation of our fellow men for that great event." Since EGW was clearly correcting the world's error about ALL TIME PROPHECY, it cannot be understood that she was teaching the (all time prophecy) error that she was correcting. "I would not be inclined to set time for Christ to come, and thus place myself under the same condemnation with those whom I was reproving." {LS80 221.1}

And the 7BC 971 (1900) about "definite time" is also removed from its context. SDA's once preached that a text removed from its context is a pretext. "After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844." {7BC 971.7} As noted EGW is not talking about ALL PROPHETIC TIME but the the tracing of the period of prophetic time to the Advent of Jesus in 1844.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Green Cochoa] #133981
06/01/11 09:35 PM
06/01/11 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.


The strongest Biblical/Spiritual evidence that the time elements in prophecies will not be literally fulfilled after 1844 is what God directly “told/showed” to EGW. Indeed, this was given as direct light on what is to be understood in the statement in Rev 10:6b. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall from the SOP anytime when a Biblical passage was directly, and so pointedly interpreted by God. Just think of all the debate that would have saved during the 1888 issue if that had been so pointedly and timely done then. So either here EGW is lying in her many statements claiming this direct revelation (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.), or what she said is indeed the explicit, injunctively stated will of God. I do not understand why you continue in your claim, which is based merely on supposition which have actually shown to be invalid by Rosangela’s point (cf. e.g., Post #133653), and just ignore/not address those clear direct revelation statements by EGW. To me you are only acting against clear Biblical, Spiritual and Prophetic ‘(God-stipulated) Law, Testimony and Light.’ (=Isa 8:20).


NJK,

Look more carefully at Mrs. White's statements relative to times after 1844. It may be that Mark sees something that you do not see. Her statements seem clear relative to time and 1844, I agree with that. But what exactly do they address?

It is my understanding based on rather extensive reading of those statements of hers that the following two points are true of all of the "prophetic time is no more" type statements which she makes:

1) She specifies this always for prophecies upon "definite time;" and
2) She is speaking always in terms of "second advent" prophecies.

In other words, the "prophetic time is no more after 1844" only applies to time prophecies which have a "definite time" (such as the Oct. 22, 1844 date had), and also to prophecies which would seek to predict Jesus' coming (as the Oct. 22, 1844 date did). After that date, there were to be no more such prophecies. In other words, the Oct. 22 date for the second coming was ordained to be preached by God, who even held His hand over a mistake in Miller's figures, but that was to be the last such prophecy upon "definite time" which would seek to predict the Lord's coming.

This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


You are close. "definite time" and "prophetic time" are used in the Spirit of Prophecy to specify the time of Christ's Advent in 1844. There are time prophecies after 1844 that are both definite and specific, but there is never to be a prophecy that will give the day of Christ's coming as October 1844. (That is until God declares the day and hour to the waiting saints in peels of thunder.)


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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