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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #134165
06/05/11 12:29 AM
06/05/11 12:29 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, it is clear you have made up your mind and nothing I quote is going to persuade you otherwise. I have nothing further to say. Thank you for the dialog.


And it seems to me that you prefer Mrs. White's statements to those of the Bible. It is true that her statements are strong, and seem clear, but what of those passages in the Bible? How do you handle them?

How do you answer the fact that God Himself instructed people to purchase a list of banquet items with their tithe money, to include strong drink?

Please explain that for us if you feel able.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #134172
06/05/11 03:53 AM
06/05/11 03:53 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
GC, when it appears there is a contradiction between sources of inspiration concerning salvation truths I believe the right and proper thing to do is to consider the overwhelming weight of evidence beginning with the clearest statements first and then formulate the most obvious conclusion. Next, consider passages that are not as clear and that seem to contradict the crystal clear statements. Usually there is a way to reconcile them. The state of the dead and hellfire are examples of truths that demand this approach.

I think it is absurd, if not blasphemous, to believe Jesus commanded the Jews in Deut 14:26 to convert their tangible tithe into money, travel to a place of His choosing, and then use it to buy whatever they desire, including wine and strong drink, and then consume it in sight of God. First of all, tithe belongs to God. It was not theirs to use as they saw fit. Secondly, the Levites were forbidden to consume wine and strong drink.

Quote:
Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony. {GC vi.1}

Some look to us gravely and say, "Don't you think there might have been some mistake in the copyist or in the translators?" This is all probable, and the mind that is so narrow that it will hesitate and stumble over this possibility or probability would be just as ready to stumble over the mysteries of the Inspired Word, because their feeble minds cannot see through the purposes of God. Yes, they would just as easily stumble over plain facts that the common mind will accept, and discern the Divine, and to which God's utterance is plain and beautiful, full of marrow and fatness. All the mistakes will not cause trouble to one soul, or cause any feet to stumble, that would not manufacture difficulties from the plainest revealed truth. {1SM 16.2}

I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of God, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of God plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. {EW 220.2}

"There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures." {7BC 945.6} I suspect the original words and meaning of Deut 14:26 was somehow lost over the years. The rest of the Bible and the SOP, as it relates to wine and strong drink, is too clear to misunderstand. The idea that Jesus raised the standard over time is not borne out in the Bible or the SOP. It has always been forbidden and condemned by God for everyone.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #134182
06/05/11 10:25 PM
06/05/11 10:25 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I think it is absurd, if not blasphemous, to believe Jesus commanded the Jews in Deut 14:26 to convert their tangible tithe into money, travel to a place of His choosing, and then use it to buy whatever they desire, including wine and strong drink, and then consume it in sight of God. First of all, tithe belongs to God. It was not theirs to use as they saw fit. Secondly, the Levites were forbidden to consume wine and strong drink.


Then what do you believe about that passage? That it was not written by Moses? That it was not inspired? That the Hebrew does not say what we see in English? How do you understand Deuteronomy 14?

Also, how do you know that what appears to be most clear actually is most accurate?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134202
06/06/11 02:46 PM
06/06/11 02:46 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Mike,

Those statements are not exactly in the same category. Each of those can be explained simply enough by recognizing that the standard has been raised. The standards may have been different in Bible times. Alternatively, these statements may refer to a particular context, such as the prohibitions for the priesthood. In the book of Exodus, God spoke of a future time when His people should be "a kingdom of priests." In Revelation, that is said to have been accomplished. I believe that refers to our day. As "priests," we are held to the high standard of spiritual leaders, not to the lower standard of the masses.
Huh?

Huh?

MM has done a good job in showing the Bible speaks against drinking.

Quote:
The Lord has given special directions in His word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced His prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings.
Either the Lord has or has not given special directions in His word forbidding the use of wine and strong drink. Your statement, that if one contradicts the Bible, then it's best to go with the Bible, I agree with in theory. However, we believe Ellen White is inspired and agrees with the Bible. So, if there's a perceived contradiction, it's not with her but with us.

With MM's listing of the statements and your reaction or lack thereof, are you saying you think Ellen White is wrong?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #134203
06/06/11 02:51 PM
06/06/11 02:51 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Click to reveal..
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, when it appears there is a contradiction between sources of inspiration concerning salvation truths I believe the right and proper thing to do is to consider the overwhelming weight of evidence beginning with the clearest statements first and then formulate the most obvious conclusion. Next, consider passages that are not as clear and that seem to contradict the crystal clear statements. Usually there is a way to reconcile them. The state of the dead and hellfire are examples of truths that demand this approach.

I think it is absurd, if not blasphemous, to believe Jesus commanded the Jews in Deut 14:26 to convert their tangible tithe into money, travel to a place of His choosing, and then use it to buy whatever they desire, including wine and strong drink, and then consume it in sight of God. First of all, tithe belongs to God. It was not theirs to use as they saw fit. Secondly, the Levites were forbidden to consume wine and strong drink.

Quote:
Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony. {GC vi.1}

Some look to us gravely and say, "Don't you think there might have been some mistake in the copyist or in the translators?" This is all probable, and the mind that is so narrow that it will hesitate and stumble over this possibility or probability would be just as ready to stumble over the mysteries of the Inspired Word, because their feeble minds cannot see through the purposes of God. Yes, they would just as easily stumble over plain facts that the common mind will accept, and discern the Divine, and to which God's utterance is plain and beautiful, full of marrow and fatness. All the mistakes will not cause trouble to one soul, or cause any feet to stumble, that would not manufacture difficulties from the plainest revealed truth. {1SM 16.2}

I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of God, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of God plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. {EW 220.2}

"There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures." {7BC 945.6} I suspect the original words and meaning of Deut 14:26 was somehow lost over the years. The rest of the Bible and the SOP, as it relates to wine and strong drink, is too clear to misunderstand. The idea that Jesus raised the standard over time is not borne out in the Bible or the SOP. It has always been forbidden and condemned by God for everyone.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I think it is absurd, if not blasphemous, to believe Jesus commanded the Jews in Deut 14:26 to convert their tangible tithe into money, travel to a place of His choosing, and then use it to buy whatever they desire, including wine and strong drink, and then consume it in sight of God.
MM, don't be absolute on that. It could very well be true and still not be God approving the use of strong drink. As the concept has been addressed elsewhere.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134211
06/06/11 03:54 PM
06/06/11 03:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
M: I think it is absurd, if not blasphemous, to believe Jesus commanded the Jews in Deut 14:26 to convert their tangible tithe into money, travel to a place of His choosing, and then use it to buy whatever they desire, including wine and strong drink, and then consume it in sight of God. First of all, tithe belongs to God. It was not theirs to use as they saw fit. Secondly, the Levites were forbidden to consume wine and strong drink.

GC: Then what do you believe about that passage? That it was not written by Moses? That it was not inspired? That the Hebrew does not say what we see in English? How do you understand Deuteronomy 14? Also, how do you know that what appears to be most clear actually is most accurate?

Here's how I answered your questions:

Quote:
"There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures." {7BC 945.6} I suspect the original words and meaning of Deut 14:26 was somehow lost over the years. The rest of the Bible and the SOP, as it relates to wine and strong drink, is too clear to misunderstand. The idea that Jesus raised the standard over time is not borne out in the Bible or the SOP. It has always been forbidden and condemned by God for everyone.

I assume you agree with the insight Jesus shared with Ellen, namely, When copies of the Bible "were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition." {EW 220.2} If so, do you suspect Deut 14:26 is a victim of "learned men"?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #134212
06/06/11 04:00 PM
06/06/11 04:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Click to reveal..
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, when it appears there is a contradiction between sources of inspiration concerning salvation truths I believe the right and proper thing to do is to consider the overwhelming weight of evidence beginning with the clearest statements first and then formulate the most obvious conclusion. Next, consider passages that are not as clear and that seem to contradict the crystal clear statements. Usually there is a way to reconcile them. The state of the dead and hellfire are examples of truths that demand this approach.

I think it is absurd, if not blasphemous, to believe Jesus commanded the Jews in Deut 14:26 to convert their tangible tithe into money, travel to a place of His choosing, and then use it to buy whatever they desire, including wine and strong drink, and then consume it in sight of God. First of all, tithe belongs to God. It was not theirs to use as they saw fit. Secondly, the Levites were forbidden to consume wine and strong drink.

Quote:
Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony. {GC vi.1}

Some look to us gravely and say, "Don't you think there might have been some mistake in the copyist or in the translators?" This is all probable, and the mind that is so narrow that it will hesitate and stumble over this possibility or probability would be just as ready to stumble over the mysteries of the Inspired Word, because their feeble minds cannot see through the purposes of God. Yes, they would just as easily stumble over plain facts that the common mind will accept, and discern the Divine, and to which God's utterance is plain and beautiful, full of marrow and fatness. All the mistakes will not cause trouble to one soul, or cause any feet to stumble, that would not manufacture difficulties from the plainest revealed truth. {1SM 16.2}

I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of God, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of God plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. {EW 220.2}

"There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures." {7BC 945.6} I suspect the original words and meaning of Deut 14:26 was somehow lost over the years. The rest of the Bible and the SOP, as it relates to wine and strong drink, is too clear to misunderstand. The idea that Jesus raised the standard over time is not borne out in the Bible or the SOP. It has always been forbidden and condemned by God for everyone.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I think it is absurd, if not blasphemous, to believe Jesus commanded the Jews in Deut 14:26 to convert their tangible tithe into money, travel to a place of His choosing, and then use it to buy whatever they desire, including wine and strong drink, and then consume it in sight of God.
MM, don't be absolute on that. It could very well be true and still not be God approving the use of strong drink. As the concept has been addressed elsewhere.

I don't see how we can assume Deut 14:26 accurately reflects the mind of God and yet also support His prohibitions and use of tithe. What do you think?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #134226
06/07/11 01:11 PM
06/07/11 01:11 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Maybe it doesn't accurately reflect the mind of God.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #134238
06/07/11 03:53 PM
06/07/11 03:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Why not? What does it mean?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #134256
06/08/11 01:58 AM
06/08/11 01:58 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Mike,

It appears you place your judgment above the actual text of the Bible to know what is proper in this case. It would also appear to open a Pandora's box of potential cases for "private interpretation" throughout the Bible if we allow for an individual to choose which parts are inspired and which are not, and/or which parts were "obviously" changed by people along the way.

Two points:

1) I believe God has power to preserve His Word, that He has promised to do so, and that He has done so. For me, this does not mean that there will be no faults at all, but that there will be no grave ones. (The comma in Luke, for example, after "today.")

2) I do not know of any other passage in the books of Moses which would clearly outline the proper use of tithe. To reject this passage would nearly be to reject any teaching of tithe up to that point--and I think it was a valid part of their worship at that time. (We don't offer sacrifices anymore either, and I suppose someone could be so incensed at the thought of actually killing an innocent lamb as to presume to "know better" than the Bible and that such were never God's will. Point to ponder.)

Just because something does not apply today is not a valid criterion upon which to base its validity at some point in time in history.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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