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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: Colin]
#136692
10/11/11 01:23 AM
10/11/11 01:23 AM
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Colin,
Do you believe there was ever a time when the Son was not a distinct person from the Father?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: gordonb1]
#136693
10/11/11 01:29 AM
10/11/11 01:29 AM
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Yes, Christ existed from eternity. That is when He was brought forth.
His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting5769 (margin ~ the days of eternity)" Micah 5:2.
"I was set up from everlasting5769 Proverbs 8:23.
I'm not sure what you mean. Mathematically speaking, if Jesus has been around from negative infinity and will continue until positive infinity, He has been and always will be around. So I'm not sure what you're saying. Let me ask a very precise question: Was there a non-zero amount of time before Christ was brought forth? IOW, was there a time when Jesus had not yet been brought forth? Could the Father reminisce, "I remember the time before I brought you forth, when I was all by Myself....."?
Last edited by asygo; 10/11/11 01:30 AM.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: gordonb1]
#136694
10/11/11 01:32 AM
10/11/11 01:32 AM
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No, the Son had all the attributes of His Father. Including always existing?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: JAK]
#136695
10/11/11 01:36 AM
10/11/11 01:36 AM
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But if Jesus had been created, the best thing He could be would be an angel (promoted into the Godhead). Maybe that's what annoyed Lucifer so bad. That is exactly the teaching being presented by the still-unknown author. Allegedly, Lucifer wanted to be promoted like Jesus was, and hence the great enmity toward Jesus.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: JAK]
#136696
10/11/11 01:41 AM
10/11/11 01:41 AM
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So, obviously the angels themselves have (or had) some confusion about just what Jesus was or is. According to these quotes, he was not recognizable as "God" to the angels, since the recognizable "God" had to tell the angels that Jesus was also "God".
Not sure I'm OK with that... Perhaps the Son has the habit of manifesting Himself in the form of His audience. To men, He was Jesus the Jewish carpenter. To angels, He was Michael the Archangel. And just like He had to clothe divinity with humanity when He was with men, maybe with angels He clothed His divinity with "angelity" (had to invent a word). At Christ's baptism, the Father announced, "This is My Son." Perhaps the angels received a similar announcement. And when the top angel is mucking everything up, it's not surprising that some angels could get confused.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: Kevin H]
#136697
10/11/11 01:45 AM
10/11/11 01:45 AM
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God in his unassuming nature allowed our pioneers to question the trinity (however the trinity was an optional doctrine that some members believed)and the church received the natural results: We began preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of Gilboah. That's an interesting idea worthy of some consideration.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: gordonb1]
#136698
10/11/11 01:55 AM
10/11/11 01:55 AM
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please identify the Bible texts where you have seen Christ's self-existence proclaimed. Then we can stick with inspired sources which will explain themselves. With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." {DA 469.4}
Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. {DA 469.5}
"Before Abraham was, I am." Christ is the preexistent, self-existent Son of God. The message He gave to Moses to give to the children of Israel was, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." {LHU 17.4}
I AM means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike with God. {TMK 12.2}
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: asygo]
#136703
10/11/11 04:48 AM
10/11/11 04:48 AM
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God in his unassuming nature allowed our pioneers to question the trinity (however the trinity was an optional doctrine that some members believed)and the church received the natural results: We began preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of Gilboah. That's an interesting idea worthy of some consideration. I agree with the above. Many of the leaders had lost the true picture of Christ. They had slipped into legalism. It was in 1888 that more glorious picture of Christ was BEGINNING to emerge. Obviously there was something missing in the way the Pioneers presented Christ for EGW wrote: ...the matchless charms of Christ....When Brother Waggoner brought out these ideas in Minneapolis, it was the first clear teaching on this subject from any human lips I had heard, excepting the conversations between myself and my husband. I have said to myself, It is because God has presented it to me in vision that I see it so clearly, and they cannot see it because they have never had it presented to them as I have. And when another presented it, every fiber of my heart said, Amen.--Ms 5, p. 10. (Sermon, Rome, New York, June 19, 1889.) {5MR 219.1}
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: asygo]
#136704
10/11/11 05:03 AM
10/11/11 05:03 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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Posts: 6,440
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please identify the Bible texts where you have seen Christ's self-existence proclaimed. Then we can stick with inspired sources which will explain themselves. With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." {DA 469.4}
Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. {DA 469.5}
"Before Abraham was, I am." Christ is the preexistent, self-existent Son of God. The message He gave to Moses to give to the children of Israel was, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." {LHU 17.4}
I AM means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike with God. {TMK 12.2} That's an excellent quote! Here's another -- Notice that it was Christ in the lowly burning bush. The bush enshrined the Infinite, all merciful God! The burning bush, in which Christ appeared to Moses, revealed God. The symbol chosen for the representation of the Deity was a lowly shrub, that seemingly had no attractions. This enshrined the Infinite. The all-merciful God shrouded His glory in a most humble type, that Moses could look upon it and live.DA 24 Here's another -- Christ's face shines with the same eternal glory as the Father's. Christ's throne is from everlasting to everlasting. That the Maker of all worlds, the Arbiter of all destinies, should lay aside His glory and humiliate Himself from love to man will ever excite the wonder and adoration of the universe. As the nations of the saved look upon their Redeemer and behold the eternal glory of the Father shining in His countenance; as they behold His throne, which is from everlasting to everlasting, and know that His kingdom is to have no end, they break forth in rapturous song: "Worthy, worthy, is the Lamb that was slain, and hath redeemed us to God, by His own most precious blood!" {AG 98.3}
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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity?
[Re: dedication]
#136708
10/11/11 07:46 AM
10/11/11 07:46 AM
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Gee, you guys these quotes has no authority. You all sound and act like Mormons who doesn’t know their Bible or choose to be blind to what it says to follow every word their prophets says even if it contradicts the Word of God. Ellen White would of never approve of this.
No where in the Bible that I’m aware says that Christ was self-existant, or immortal. However, the Bible makes clear that the Father is the only one that has immortallity. Then other texts that says the Father gives things to Christ like authority, life, etc… And other texts that says that the Father is above Christ. So that’s what we got and should be the end of the question right there. Going beyond what the Bible actually says, we become worshippers of Baal of Peor – the Lord of the gaps. We add or we take what other man says to complement the gaps we do not understand and then we end up contradicting what actually is said.
Blessings
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