Old Tom:When a person grows in Christ, he may act, think, or speak selfishly without being aware of it.

Mike:Tom, please, show me an inspired quote that teaches born again believers, who are growing “in Christ, who walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, who are partaking of the divine nature, who are endowed with eye salve and spiritual discernment, can think, speak, or behave in a selfish manner without realizing it is morally wrong either 1) during the sin, or 2) immediately after the fact.

Tom:A couple of things to look at would be "The Two Worshippers" in Christ's Object Lessons, and the history of 1888. Those who rejected the message were committing sin, and did so persistently for many years, which the Spirit of Prophesy pointed out, but she did not state that these people were in a lost condition (although she warned of that possibility if they continued resisting the Holy Spirit)

Old Tom: Our characters do not become instantly mature once we are born again. We still need to grow up to the full stature of Christ.

Mike:I agree. The same was true of Jesus as He grew in grace and knowledge from childhood to manhood. He was born morally perfect (complete), and He became morally perfect (mature) as He developed His character.

Tom:Yes, but Christ never sinned and never ignorantly committed sin.

Old Tom: If one ignorantly does one of the things on your list, that does not mean he is walking according to the flesh.

Mike:Tom, please, the credit for the list belongs to Paul, and ultimately, to God.

Tom:That's kind of a frivilous comment. The "your list" means nothing more than "the list you cited". We've been talking about Galatians. Everyone knows you didn't write that, Mike.

Old Tom: For example, one could practice fornication without being aware that it is a sin (e.g. be married to more than one woman), but this would not be walking according to the flesh, provided the person was not aware it was a sin.

Mike:You’re right, having more than one wife, not realizing it violates the law, is not a sin.

Tom:It's fornication, which is on the list.

Mike:But, polygamy isn’t a part of the list, is it? God commanded the married brother-in-law of a childless widow to take her to wife and to raise seed unto his brother.

Tom:God winked at polygamy before Christ came.

Old Tom: Idolatry does not simply cover worshiping idols made of wood or stone, but includes having false concepts of God's character (the Spirit of Prophesy talks about this in the Great Controversy). So one could easily be practicing in ignorance a subtle form of idolatry, which would not count as walking in the flesh provided the Spirit of God had not yet revealed the false concept of God's character to the believer.

Mike:I agree with you that a born again believer might ignorantly believe things about God that are not true, but I disagree he or she would worship such ideas as idols. Innocently believing an untruth and worshipping it are two totally different things. A truly born again believer would not be guilty of worshipping a concept or a doctrine, whether true or untrue.

Let’s take a closer look at the quote you referred to. Here it is:

GC 583
In rejecting the truth, men reject its Author. In trampling upon the law of God, they deny the authority of the Law-giver. It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone. By misrepresenting the attributes of God, Satan leads men to conceive of Him in a false character. With many, a philosophical idol is enthroned in the place of Jehovah; while the living God, as He is revealed in His word, in Christ, and in the works of creation, is worshiped by but few. Thousands deify nature while they deny the God of nature. Though in a different form, idolatry exists in the Christian world today as verily as it existed among ancient Israel in the days of Elijah. The god of many professedly wise men, of philosophers, poets, politicians, journalists--the god of polished fashionable circles, of many colleges and universities, even of some theological institutions--is little better than Baal, the sun-god of Phoenicia. {GC 583.1}

Tom:This is the quote I had in mind. Well done! Notice it says, "It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone." How easy is it to fashion an idol of wood or stone? Pretty easy, right? That's just how easy it is to make an idol of false doctrines and theories.

Mike:Are you suggesting that born again believers, who walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, who are partaking of the divine nature, who are endowed with eye salve and spiritual discernment, can be innocently ignorant of rejecting the truth, and in its place cherish a false doctrine or theory?

Tom:Yes, and this is obviously the case of what's happening on this very forum. We have differing ideas and theories. One of us is obviously wrong (or both). Unless you wish to ascribe intent to one of us, or propose that one of us isn't born again, the false theories we hold are being held in ignorance.

Mike: I know that’s not what Paul had in mind when he penned his list.

Tom:What's "that"? How do you know?

Mike:And I know that’s not what Sister White intended to imply. Check out the context of her quote and you’ll see what I mean.

Tom:I've looked at the quote, and noticed, as I pointed out, that it's as easy to make an idol out of a false doctrine or theory as it is to fashion one out of wood or stone, which is an exceedingly easy thing to do.

Mike:Rosangela, the man of Romans 7 is a born again believer who understands it is his sinful flesh nature that generates unholy suggestions and feelings.

Rosangela:I disagree, Mike. There is a clear contrast between Romans 7 and Romans 8.
Besides, the context of the quotations of EGW imply that Paul is describing his pre-conversion experience:

Tom:I agree that Romans 7 and 8 are in contrast, and the Romans 7 is not describing the experience of faith, seeing as how it describes defeat instead of victory (Galatians 5 is similar in describing the fight, but in it victory is inevitable, rather than defeat -- that's the result of faith). However, while it's true it's not speaking of the experience of faith of a born-again believer, that does not discount the truth that temptations come to us through the flesh.

It is Satan's desire to reach the mind by way of the flesh. The flesh is his realm. The flesh will be a thorn to our side until Christ's Second coming when this corruptible becomes incorruptible. It is God's desire to get the flesh to yield by way of the mind.

Christ partook of the same flesh we have, and was subject to the same temptations. But whereas we have all yielded to the temptations of the flesh, Christ never did.

Rosangela, maybe we can start a thread on Romans 7? It is very clear to me that Pual is talking about a born again believer recognizing and resisting the unholy suggestions and feelings generated and communicated to his new man mind by his sinful flesh nature.

Tom, you seem convinced that a Spirit-led believer can be guilty of fornication without realizing it. I guess there isn't anything else we can study, at this point. Unless you have more to say?

Mike, given that:
1)Polygamy is fornication.
2)There have been those who have practised polygame, while being in a saved condition.

then my conclusion must follow, right? So you'd have to disagree with 1) or 2) to disagree with this conclusion.

Also there's the idolatry example.

Tom, your examples, in my mind, do not constitute character defects, at least, not in the judgment sense. In other words, they will not be counted against them in judgment. The way I see it, only those defects that are developed as a result of violating ones conscience and convictions will count in judgment.

A born again believer may indeed, though it is highly unlikely in developed countries, practice polygamy without realizing it is biblically and morally wrong in the eyes of God. If such a case were true, they would be guiltless in the eyes of God because they are not deliberately violating their conscience or convictions. That's the key.

In the case of making an idol out of an idea, I am completely convinced that no one is guiltless in the eyes of God, especially not a born again believer. In the light of the SOP quote, cited above, no born again believer can reject the truth in favor of damnable heresy without realizing it is morally wrong. Rejecting the truth requires a conscious, deliberate choice. One must fight the convicting voice of the Holy Spirit to reject the truth.

I agree with you that it's possible for a born again believer to mistakenly believe false doctrines without realizing it is untrue. But I disagree it constitutes a moral defective trait of character, one that counts against them in judgment.

Neither do I agree with you that a person can reject the truth or idolize an idea, even if it's right, and still be in a saved state.

Also, I do not believe a lukewarm Christian is in a saved state.

Mike:Tom, your examples, in my mind, do not constitute character defects, at least, not in the judgment sense. In other words, they will not be counted against them in judgment. The way I see it, only those defects that are developed as a result of violating ones conscience and convictions will count in judgment.

Tom:I was treating the list, and showed that one could ignorantly commit items on the list although born again.

Mike:A born again believer may indeed, though it is highly unlikely in developed countries, practice polygamy without realizing it is biblically and morally wrong in the eyes of God. If such a case were true, they would be guiltless in the eyes of God because they are not deliberately violating their conscience or convictions. That's the key.

Tom:This suffices, then, to show that one can committ something on the list ignorantly, which is what I set out to show.

Mike:In the case of making an idol out of an idea, I am completely convinced that no one is guiltless in the eyes of God, especially not a born again believer. In the light of the SOP quote, cited above, no born again believer can reject the truth in favor of damnable heresy without realizing it is morally wrong.

Tom:You have a tendency to add qualifications which make your statements non-falsifiable. For example, here your add "damnable heresy." Of course God will not allow one to ignorantly commit a "damnable heresy"! God's not willing that any should perish. He's not going to sit by and let someone be lost without letting the person know what's happening.

But that's not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether one could ignorantly committ items on the list while being born again. If it is really as easy to fashion idols from false ideas as it is to make them from wood or stone, the answer is clearly yes.

If you add qualifications to arguments that disprove your ideas to make them non-falsifiable, there's not much point in carrying on a discussion.

Mike:Rejecting the truth requires a conscious, deliberate choice. One must fight the convicting voice of the Holy Spirit to reject the truth.

Tom:Certainly, but again, this isn't what we were discussing.

Mike:I agree with you that it's possible for a born again believer to mistakenly believe false doctrines without realizing it is untrue. But I disagree it constitutes a moral defective trait of character, one that counts against them in judgment.

Tom:Again, you're switching the conversation.

Mike:Neither do I agree with you that a person can reject the truth or idolize an idea, even if it's right, and still be in a saved state.

Tom:None of us on this site agrees with you on all your ideas, so are all of us lost, except for you?

Mike:Also, I do not believe a lukewarm Christian is in a saved state.

Tom:This would make an interesting topic. If the Laodecian condition represents the SDA church, then if you're idea is true, the SDA church is in an unsaved state.