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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Colin] #138562
01/03/12 07:47 AM
01/03/12 07:47 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Colin
What do you mean? - remember this?

Originally Posted By: EGW
God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to his Son. (8T 268)


Having accepted human form, and having been made a "little lower than the angels," Christ has been re-elevated to equality with God the Father.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through suffering." Through the agency of the Holy Spirit, a new principle of mental and spiritual power was to be brought to man, who, through association with divinity, was to become one with God. Christ, the redeemer and restorer, was to sanctify and purify man's mind, making it a power that would draw other minds to Himself. It is His purpose, by the elevating, sanctifying power of the truth, to give men nobility and dignity. He desires His children to reveal His character, to exert His influence, that other minds may be drawn into harmony with His mind. "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him, rooted and built up in Him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. . . . For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power." {ST, September 24, 1902 par. 3}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Colin] #138564
01/03/12 12:38 PM
01/03/12 12:38 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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Interesting observation about the first sentence being added in the online version that I have, but not in the printed version that I also have. I wonder why?
Originally Posted By: Colin
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
The final paragraph in the Sabbath Afternoon section says:
Quote:
Though some early Adventists struggled with the doctrine, our church today has taken a firm and unrelenting stand on this teaching. As Fundamental Belief number 2 says, “There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons.”

The first sentence, here, is not in the printed quarterly, btw. cool check here, http://absg.adventist.org

It is similar to the first question at the end of the lesson, but is rather more strident.

It's historical reference is simply wrong: our early church's teaching was firmly and decidedly against the doctrine. Our beliefs, on the other hand, shouldn't really be "unrelenting", for the Bible is our rule of faith.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Colin] #138568
01/03/12 05:25 PM
01/03/12 05:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Colin
M: The one point that is brushed aside as unimportant is the fact the Father, under the non-trinitarian model, spent eternity in a dark and void universe all by Himself. Not until Jesus came along and began creating things did the Father have others to love and enjoy. The idea that the Father spent eternity alone is too unimaginable to believe.

C: Yes, quite unimaginable! Two things are a mystery about God, no, three things. The begotten Sonship of Christ's eternal pre-existence, his incarnation as the Son of man, and the perfection of his human character of Godliness in our sinful flesh. Thus, we accept that the Father is the God and Father of Christ, Christ is the Son of God and equal to him, as announced to the heavenly host before Lucifer fell, and we receive the Holy Spirit from them now that Christ is ascended to heaven - not guarranteed when he was incarnated, for he took infinite risk of losing his divinity when becoming a man should he sin - that we may live for God through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes, precisely how Jesus became a human is an unexplainable mystery. Also, how He avoided sinning during the ages of non-accountability is equally as mysterious. However, I don't understand why you think Jesus' "eternal pre-existence" is a mystery. Do you believe Jesus is eternal in the same sense the Father is eternal? For example, do you believe Jesus has always existed in the same sense the Father has always existed? Or, do you believe Jesus had a beginning, a time when He proceeded from the Father?

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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Colin] #138571
01/03/12 08:32 PM
01/03/12 08:32 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Colin
What do you mean? - remember this?

Originally Posted By: EGW
God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to his Son. (8T 268)


So the Catholic church is right? Who or what made Christ equal? When?


Harold T.
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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Mountain Man] #138574
01/04/12 12:24 AM
01/04/12 12:24 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Colin
M: The one point that is brushed aside as unimportant is the fact the Father, under the non-trinitarian model, spent eternity in a dark and void universe all by Himself. Not until Jesus came along and began creating things did the Father have others to love and enjoy. The idea that the Father spent eternity alone is too unimaginable to believe.

C: Yes, quite unimaginable! Two things are a mystery about God, no, three things. The begotten Sonship of Christ's eternal pre-existence, his incarnation as the Son of man, and the perfection of his human character of Godliness in our sinful flesh. Thus, we accept that the Father is the God and Father of Christ, Christ is the Son of God and equal to him, as announced to the heavenly host before Lucifer fell, and we receive the Holy Spirit from them now that Christ is ascended to heaven - not guarranteed when he was incarnated, for he took infinite risk of losing his divinity when becoming a man should he sin - that we may live for God through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes, precisely how Jesus became a human is an unexplainable mystery. Also, how He avoided sinning during the ages of non-accountability is equally as mysterious. However, I don't understand why you think Jesus' "eternal pre-existence" is a mystery. Do you believe Jesus is eternal in the same sense the Father is eternal? For example, do you believe Jesus has always existed in the same sense the Father has always existed? Or, do you believe Jesus had a beginning, a time when He proceeded from the Father?

Mountainman, your latest question to me reiterates that it's a mystery: not only did the Word of God proceed from the Father "in the days of eternity" - as our church publications stated consistently throughout the lifetime of Ellen White and after, but the Father was equally never alone in eternity.

In fact the 1936 Sabbath School lesson for Oct 7
Quote:
The direct statement of Jesus, "I came forth from the Father," reads literally, "I came out of the Father." Put with this, his testimony in John 10:38, "The Father is in me, and I in him," we have Jesus' personal witness that he truly was "begotten of the Father", as John says in 1:14. (Sabbath School Lesson Oct 7, 1936)

That leaves a mystery of infinite proportions we shouldn't delve into for we cannot understand it. What matters is the revealed natural link between God and Christ in the latter's pre-existence: he is God because he is the only begotten of God. smile

Co-existent? That's not what the Bible says, is it. smile As our church published throughout and a good bit after Ellen White's lifetime - such as above, in her and other's books, and he is also the Word of God, in the Father, from "the beginning". Co-eternity is established, co-existence - that they are co-eval, ie. the same age, is a new concept in our teaching. Where is it in the Bible or SOP, please?

Does God have a Son who is not created or adopted?... wink

Last edited by Colin; 01/04/12 03:04 AM.
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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Harold Fair] #138575
01/04/12 12:27 AM
01/04/12 12:27 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
Originally Posted By: Colin
What do you mean? - remember this?

Originally Posted By: EGW
God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to his Son. (8T 268)


So the Catholic church is right? Who or what made Christ equal? When?

I can't speak for the RC church... crazy smile

From all Ellen White's writings and from the written Word of God we understand and believe that God the Father made his only begotten Son equal with himself, if only in the hearing of the entire, assembled host of heaven. Read PP 34 at www.egwwritings.org smile

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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Colin] #138576
01/04/12 12:28 AM
01/04/12 12:28 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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E. Oregon, USA
Just to orientate the discussion a little, here, does everyone agree that when God gave his Son to this world out of love, his Son took a risk, an infinite risk, to his deity by becoming a man?

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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Colin] #138577
01/04/12 04:04 AM
01/04/12 04:04 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
I didn't read that correctly. crazy It was Oct 17, 1936, in Sabbath School: typically fully authorised by the GC SS Dept as our beliefs in the 30s...

Also, I missed this bit, from that lesson.
Quote:
In the passages we have studied here, we find that Christ was with the Father "before the world was", "from the days of eternity", "before the foundation of the world", "before all things". He was therefore no part of creation, but was "begotten of the Father" in the days of eternity, and very God himself.

"Very God himself": he is the Father? - no, he is truly divine with the Father - just before you ask. wink

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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Colin] #138578
01/04/12 04:13 AM
01/04/12 04:13 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
For MM mainly, perhaps, but of course for all of us, too.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality. (MS 116, Dec 19, 1905 - 6 years after Desire of Ages, also in "The Upward Look", p.367

The Father is the infinite God, but Jesus is the true Son of the infinite God, having in himself the fulness of infinite divinity.

What more is there to say? smile ...well

Originally Posted By: EGW
The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. (Letter 32, 1899, MS 140, 1903, 5BC p.1129)

Christ is our Example. He was next to God in the heavenly courts. But he came to this earth to live among men. (Letter 48, 1902

Christ in his pre-existence was infinite as his Father but not God himself, who is the Father, so when the Son of God was personally on earth the Father, the Lord God Almighty, is emphatically, personally in heaven. (Orthodox trinity teaching is that the substance of the Son of God didn't leave the Father in heaven when he became a man: now, that's weird, to us!)

Originally Posted By: EGW
The Word existed as a divine Being, even as the eternal Son of God, in union and oneness with his Father. (RH, Apr 5, 1906)

He was the Word of God - God's thought made audible. (DA 19)


Now, here's proof that I don't read enough SOP. grin
Quote:
Christ wept at Satan's woe, but told him, as the mind of God, that he could never be received into heaven. (1SP, p.29)

From eternity there was complete unity between the FAther and the Son. They were two yet little short of being identical; two in individuality, yet one in spirit and heart and character. (YI, Dec 16, 1897)


Not forgetting
Quote:
Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. (PP 34.1)

Last edited by Colin; 01/04/12 04:42 AM.
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Re: Lesson #1 (1st Quarter 2012): The Triune God [Re: Colin] #138582
01/04/12 04:01 PM
01/04/12 04:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Colin
M: Do you believe Jesus is eternal in the same sense the Father is eternal? For example, do you believe Jesus has always existed in the same sense the Father has always existed? Or, do you believe Jesus had a beginning, a time when He proceeded from the Father?

C: Mountainman, your latest question to me reiterates that it's a mystery: not only did the Word of God proceed from the Father "in the days of eternity" - as our church publications stated consistently throughout the lifetime of Ellen White and after, but the Father was equally never alone in eternity. . . That leaves a mystery of infinite proportions we shouldn't delve into for we cannot understand it.

"From eternity there was a complete unity between the Father and the Son. They were two yet little short of being identical; two in individuality, yet one in spirit, and heart, and character. (YI, Dec 16, 1897)

I appreciate the quotes and comments you posted. Thank you. However, I hate to say, I still do not understand your view. Do you believe Jesus had a beginning, a time when He proceeded from the Father?

Also, why do you think it's too deep and mysterious for us to comprehend the Father existing alone before Jesus proceeded from Him? My father existed before I was born. And I existed before my son was born. It's not difficult for me to grasp. Do you see what I mean?

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