I haven't swept anytning under any carpet. you obviously have. Who do you think the ones raised in Revelation 20 that outnumber the sand of the sea are? The ones that follow Satan to the Holy City and are 'consumed'??

I never made her into one - God did...
...And Sister White accepted that lot.



Sister White said that to reject her was to reject the One who sent her...
...You can't have it ANY clearer than that.
...As for Doctrinal gounds being settled God did that THROUGH His Sock Puppet.
...I have already demonstrated that in these forums like a hot knife goes through warm butter.



Sock Puppet
A sense of the treasure and glory which they have lost rushes upon them, and they realize that the wages of sin is death. They see the holy, happy company whom they have despised, clothed with glory, honor, immortality, and eternal life, while they are outside the city with every mean and abominable thing. Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, “The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.” Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, “Amen!” Said the angel, “Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will
have a clean universe.

That seriously does not look to me like "ALL" will be saved...
..."Satan suffered for the ruin of the souls he had caused".
...Now please, outrank what you've just read and tell me everyone is saved.





If Ellen White's bones are worth the weight of salt...
...You had better listen to the Pioneers.
...Because it was God that said through her that they taught the truth.

Just because these people are said that the fire out of heaven “devoured” them doesn’t mean they were literally “consumed” as you are implying here. We know that these people stood in front of the throne of God afterwards. If they were literally “consumed” or “devoured” and already dead a second time, they wouldn’t of been able to stand to hear G-d’s judgment wouldn’t they?

This same figure of speech was used to described Nabad and Abihu's death. Apparently in our mind they were totally literally “devoured” from the fire that came out from the Lord. However, if they were so “devoured”, why was there coat not burned and their body needed to be dragged out of the temple? (Lev 10:5 “So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses has said” ) At least we know that Nabad and Abihu were really “dead”(in sound sleep with no recollection of what was going on), whereas the people described in Rev 20:9 where not -- as they stood before the throne of God afterwards (see Rev 20:12) to hear G-d’s judgment. Then afterwards, they were thrown in the lake of fire in verse 14.

Harold be careful. You are taking literally which are figure of speech. I did the same things for the longest time. We need to be more thorough and study very deligently.

Revelation is a highly symbolic and figurative book. Also prophecies given to the prophets also are given in such type of speech. Jesus also spoke in such manner with parables. We need to be able to know what is symbolic and what is not; and learn how to extract G-d’s meaning and truth from these.

How can we do that? The most important way I've learned is to first know the Torah. “To the law(Torah = Pantateuch) and to the testimony(attestation, usage): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. “ IS 8:20 This is the measure we need to use to test if someone’s words, interpretations, revelation, prophecies, or doctrines are true or false(Deut 13:1-11; Deut 18:15-22), including testing our own speculations or conclusions when studying scriptures. There’s no other written foundation given to man to test truth other than the Torah.

To Moses G-d did not speak in dreams, or visions, in “dark speeches”(symbols and figuratively) or not in “the similitude of the Lord”. G-d spoke "mouth to mouth" and "face to face"(Ex 12:6-8). The Pentateuch describes the plan of salvation. It is all there and with much details. This is the foundation that G-d gaved us to test and to know truth.

So, I’ve provided the foundation of G-d’s will for all men described in the Law of Jubilee. All debts(sins) are cancelled by LAW when the Jubilee comes, no manner if the offender has paid it in full or not. All is restore to their original inheritance(glorified body) given by the Lord at creation.

Then an understanding of the Feast is very important to understand in more details about how G-d is going to accomplish what he vowed in Isaiah 45 “I have sworn by myself…that unto me every knee shall bow. And every tongue shall swear”(shaba', to be complete, seven oneself, i.e. swear(by repeating a declaration 7 times) “to the glory of God” and in Num 14:21 “But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord”. Also in Ps 72:11-20, 86:9-10; and Ps 22:27 “all the ends of the world shall remember and return unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship thee. For the kingdom is the Lord’s and he is the governor among the nations.” And many more texts as such.

These expresses G-d’s will for all man which He has sworn that He will subdue all the earth. This takes time to bring all men into subjection and it takes careful planning and wisdom. The Lord has all the time of the world and He is all Wisdom and is able to accomplish His plan.

The plan of salvation laid up in the Torah will be all fulfilled by Jesus Christ who will bring all things into glory to the glory of His Father.

Elle,

I am still waiting for you to answer my questions, etc. in the post.

If one can't take the Bible literally, what can we take? Ask my wife what 'consumed' means to me. She bakes me a peach cobbler and it is consumed. There is nothing left of it. You seem to think we all will have a second chance. Where you get that I have no idea. Hebrews 9:27 says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Just once.
We ALL face that judgment throne. But the sinner goes no farther.
His fate has already been set by himself. We ALL chose what the future holds for us.

In case anybody is wondering, I moved the last few posts in this thread to the thread dedicated to the EGW being referred to as a sock puppet, therefore, I am asking that any further discussion on this be posted there.

The only text I'm aware of that claimed Jesus said everyone will end up being saved...
...Is from a Gnostic book that was mentioned on the history channel.
...I forget which one it was but that's where the idea comes from.

Looking at the first NT text that Elle listed in her post:

How does one understand the above text in light of this only a two verses earlier?

Looking at this in the context of verse 23, it doesn't sound like everybody will be saved, as it says those who do not hear that prophet will be destroyed from among the same seed.

Texts isolated from their context often prove to be misleading. Also, a given passage must be understood in harmony with all others. When the Word of God is taken as a whole its truths are clear and harmonious.

Looking at that from a point of reasoning one would conclude that Acts 3:25 isn't saying anything different...
...Then when other texts said that Israel would be blessed.
...However that didn't prevent Korah from being annihilated.
...Nor did it prevent any of the other multiple apostasy recorded.

It's a blessing to be born into a good family or a good country...
...However the jails are full of people who despite being blessed.
...Never took advantage of the blessing they got.

This is a briefing of what I currently understand from the Bible.

Before going into the Lake of fire here's an important note :

Notes about Book of Life in Rev 20:15
The wording of Rev 20:11-15

1. Does imply that many were found in the Book of Life, however it doesn’t say that it is only the names of those from the 1st ressurection.
   
2. that the name of some of those from the 2nd res. could be found in the Book of life
   
3. that the name of some of those from the 2nd res. would not be found in the Book of Life.

...:…Therefore Rev 20:15 does not imply that everyone raised at the 2nd ress. should be cast into the lake of fire.

Saying that all of those part of the 2nd res., their names are all not found in the book of life is purely speculation and adding to the Bible. We need to look at other texts to get more details about this.

Lake of Fire
At the Great White Throne judgment, those whose name are NOT found written in the book of life are said to be cast into the “lake of fire” (Rev. 20:15). The lake of fire is the baptism of fire that John talked about Jesus would come to baptism us with(Mat 3:11; Luk 3:16).

The lake of fire (a baptism of fire) is the anti-type of the Type found in the sanctuary service at the laver or the molten sea. The laver was the place where only the priests could wash(baptize) in order to be cleanse or purified. This is the Type of the firstfruits company(the barley harvest) who are the first ones to be baptized with fire who don’t need to be re-baptized for they have already died the second death by which this baptism brings us to. No other Israelites had access to the laver besides the priests.

The laver was the earthly manifestation of the heavenly baptism -- the baptism of fire that only Jesus can baptized man with. In the temple of Solomon, the laver was called “the molten sea” (1Kg 7:23). When gold is refined to its absolute pure state, molten gold is as clear as crystal. If the laver would have been filled with pure gold instead of water it would of looked like “a sea of glass like crystal”(Rev. 4:6) and “a sea of glass mixed with fire.”(Rev 15:2)

So the laver or the lake of fire is the final place where the great Refiner sits to purify the hearts of men. “for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver” Mal 3:2,3 First He refined the hearts of the firstfruit before His 2nd coming, then He purifies the hearts of the rest of the world at the Great White Thone Judgment.

"for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Is 26:9

Second Death
I gaved my Biblical understanding on the second death in the Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... discussion. I presented my Biblical perspective of what “death” or "mortality" means. Here is an example where I differ from Stephen Jones via my personal studies. Basically, we are mortal and it is only when the full glory of God dwells in us that we become “immortal” for only God is immortal and is the source of life.

Here are some links of my study how scripture relates to the first death and the second death in the topic above here and there.

In brief, the first death is like the first birth, which is physical which is establish by G-d for man to die once. (Heb 9:27) The second death is like the second birth which is spiritual.

Those that are truly “born again” die this “second death” before hand. Paul said “I die daily” (1Co 15:31). Obviously he is talking about the second death which is the death of the "flesh" or "the old man" which is a total submission to G-d’s will.

Therefore that’s why that those that has already received the baptism of fire and the fire of God dwells in them fully, the second death has no power on them(Rev 20:6) as it cannot hurt them(Rev 2:11) any further as all their "flesh" has already "died" or "burned up" before hand.