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Re: Astronomy question [Re: jamesonofthunder] #139817
02/17/12 03:07 PM
02/17/12 03:07 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Water CANNOT come into existence without an atmosphere. The atmosphere cannot exist without a sun. The sun was created on the fourth day of creation. Your reasoning does not even follow rational scientific methodology let alone biblical reasoning. But you go ahead with teaching your comprehension. We'll see what it gets you in the end.

To be clear, on the first day of creation there was light, but it was not from the celestial sun, it was the creative power of God, that under this power separated the atmosphere and sustained the plants. But there was not the order of things that could supply one bit of support for your theory.
Some very bold statements, there. But I do notice you never said when the atmosphere was created. But water was here before the first day. You disagree, but that's not what my Bible says. Follow the verses through.

Quote:
You look at this verse as if it can be explained by material, scientific, Empirical evidence.
Yes, that's what I see you doing here.

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Much of what you teach are from the church of Scientology. Just thought you would like to know that since you claim to be Adventist.
I think you are jumping to conclusions about him. If you didn't notice, MM substitutes and splices in different definitions for words and meanings that are ... well, not usual. So just because he uses the same words and phrases scientologists or others use, doesn't mean that he believes that way. You need to put in work to attempt to understand him before labeling him.

Re: Astronomy question [Re: jamesonofthunder] #139818
02/17/12 03:25 PM
02/17/12 03:25 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
"Water CANNOT come into existence without an atmosphere. The atmosphere cannot exist without a sun." Are you a physicists? You are making some interesting assumptions.


Assumptions? Actually I have intensively studied the subjects of physics longer than it takes to get a master degree or pH D, for 17 years. If it weren't for the fact that there is no accredited degree for creationism I would have one. But how about if I site others who do have degrees? Would that suffice?
You mean with a telescope? wink

Quote:
Why does the moon not have water (except perhaps at the southern pole where comet debris is known to exist)? Because there is no atmosphere.
I think it's a wrong conclusion here which could be shown by answering, why doesn't the moon have an atmosphere. Do you know what a confounder is?

Re: Astronomy question [Re: jamesonofthunder] #139823
02/17/12 04:07 PM
02/17/12 04:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Quote:
M: Did God tell you in a dream or vision to warn me? You may be right, Jesus may have created light, water, and the earth on the first day of creation week. But it doesn't say so in the Bible.

J: That's why God keeps asking you, "where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth, and suspended the world upon nothing?" It truly takes the Faith of the Lord to see from His perspective. We fall so short in our own puny understanding, but when the Spirit of Truth has come, there is very little that He would not reveal in His time.

James, please answer my question. Thank you.

Re: Astronomy question [Re: Mountain Man] #139829
02/17/12 09:03 PM
02/17/12 09:03 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: kland
T:I don't think it accounts for stars dying for two reasons. One is that mankind only sinned a few thousand years ago, and the star's death is tied to man's sin (being in this universe). It takes a long, long time for a star to die, and a long time for use to see that it's happened. So how, under this scenario, are we seeing evidence for the death of stars?

k:This would relate to the age being misinterpreted. If you have parallel universes, and one sinned, then disaster happened throughout its whole universe, one could imagine an explosion causing the expansion of the universe (faster than light), therefore the light which looks really old, has also been moving away from us faster than it can get here. And stars dying only started when the universe system sinned.


I'm not following this. First of all, how can something be moving faster than the speed of light? That would imply imaginary mass and time moving backwards, according to relativity. Secondly, how does it explain that we are seeing evidence of the death of a star in only thousands of years vs. the millions of years it should be?

Quote:
Not saying I believe any of this any more than the aforementioned multiple realities....


That's fine. Just looking for something which makes sense.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Astronomy question [Re: Tom] #139830
02/17/12 09:08 PM
02/17/12 09:08 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: james
Dear Brother Tom,

What we perceive, and what is truth can only harmonize if seen through the eternal word of God. If God says sin is only 6,000 years old, then there must be an explanation that has not been fully revealed to our understanding. For as the Lord Himself said;

Job 38

1 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel By words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.

No one knows what happened exactly because we were not around to witness the event, so for the safety of our souls we need to consider God the authority. Pray for understanding, for we will only lead ourselves astray if left to our imaginations.

The evidence is obviously swayed to represent this Universe as Billions of years old, but the biblical evidence says 6,000.

In faith we are tested to believe God at His word. Amen.


This is circular reasoning. Come up with a theory, assume it is true, and if there is any evidence to the contrary, explain that away as not being possibly true because it contradicts the theory.

Another possibility is that the theory is wrong. If a theory is correct, it should be supportable by evidence. God provides us evidence for the things He wishes us to believe. Not overwhelming proof (which would do away with the need for faith, as well as being contrary to the concept of free well -- i.e. overwhelming proof would be), but enough evidence upon which to make an informed decision.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Astronomy question [Re: Tom] #139837
02/17/12 11:08 PM
02/17/12 11:08 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: kland
k:This would relate to the age being misinterpreted. If you have parallel universes, and one sinned, then disaster happened throughout its whole universe, one could imagine an explosion causing the expansion of the universe (faster than light), therefore the light which looks really old, has also been moving away from us faster than it can get here. And stars dying only started when the universe system sinned.


I'm not following this. First of all, how can something be moving faster than the speed of light? That would imply imaginary mass and time moving backwards, according to relativity.

The theory of cosmological inflation includes the concept that there can be causality between points in space that would normally be too far from each other for causality to apply. The specific phenomenon I'm thinking of is the homogeneity of the universe in terms of the dispersion of matter. The explanation is that when the universe expanded during its inflation stage, it "expanded" the light along with it, taking it farther than it could have gone on its own.

Not that I buy all this, but it's how they explain it AFAIK. I hope I made sense.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Astronomy question [Re: asygo] #139841
02/18/12 02:17 AM
02/18/12 02:17 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
How long did it take the angel Gabriel to travel from Heaven to Earth to speak to Daniel?

It obviously didn't take very long, which means Gabriel must have travelled much, much faster than the speed of light.

Does that, therefore, mean that Gabriel also travelled into the past?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Astronomy question [Re: Daryl] #139844
02/18/12 02:37 AM
02/18/12 02:37 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
How long did it take the angel Gabriel to travel from Heaven to Earth to speak to Daniel?

It obviously didn't take very long, which means Gabriel must have travelled much, much faster than the speed of light.

Does that, therefore, mean that Gabriel also travelled into the past?

That would mean that Gabriel came from the future, when he already knew that Daniel was going to need him. Which means he could have taken his time, knowing exactly when he needed to arrive. Which means he didn't need to exceed the speed of light. Which means he didn't go backward in time. Which means he went forward in time. Which means he had to go faster than light. Which means..... LOL

Anyway, on a more serious note, there are theories, such as wormholes, that allow spatial travel that exceeds the speed of light when taken as a whole, but does not exceed the speed of light locally. It works something like a shortcut through space-time. It's possible that angels can travel that way.

Or, since angels are spirits, perhaps they can have imaginary mass, allowing speeds beyond c.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Astronomy question [Re: jamesonofthunder] #139846
02/18/12 02:58 AM
02/18/12 02:58 AM
C
Charity  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
James, this statement is the best commentary on the creation account I've seen so far. It's got the hallmarks of truth - Simple, brief and plausible:
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

The first verse, Gen 1:1 sets the stage. God is about to create the heavens of our earth. This not 'heaven' where God dwells but the heavens of earth, or our universe.

The second verse shows there was nothing in existence when He began. It also shows that at this point the only water in existence was the water of life, the Spirit of God in heaven. The same water that flows from His throne. This is His creative power or Holy Spirit. We are witnessing His Holy Spirit go forth to create our Universe by his word.

The third verse is the actual point of entry for anything to come into existence for this Universe. Like a giant placenta or incubator, God shared His glory with our space first. This is the light from Him to create and sustain life before there was a sun moon or stars.

You look at this verse as if it can be explained by material, scientific, Empirical evidence.

"Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands (billions) of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old."{3SG 91.2}


On a different topic, your epitaph fits - Boanerges. I've naturally got that disposition myself. But, the Lord can mold us sons of Zebedee, siphon off the dross of human electricity and make us channels of the pure heavenly current. I've personally been inspired by a lot of your thoughts. It takes divine wisdom to know the difference between watering down the truth to make it more palatable and real courtesy. Please pray for me to that end. You're in my prayers brother. The parting words of a friend to me on his death bed were: "Let no man take your crown".

Re: Astronomy question [Re: asygo] #139847
02/18/12 03:06 AM
02/18/12 03:06 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Enoch walked with God 7 generations after the fall. How? Did an angel pick him up and carry him to heaven every Sabbath? No way, the gate to heaven was still on earth until the flood. He came to the eastern gate that Adam had been escorted out of, and he could see heaven through the portal and hear God's voice. Heaven was right there.

What we know is what we see until truth is shown to be other wise.

My point? We are in a cosmic prison, sequestered from the un-fallen worlds. In our material perspective it looks as if it would be 1.5k light years to get to the horse head nebula beyond which we are sure the Holy City is, but Enoch could see the New Jerusalem from here as if just beyond the gate where the angel was posted. How? Our perception of time and space is subject to our fallen condition. Angels have their own dimension.

It takes two points on a map to triangulate distance and we are on one tiny planet, one perspective. How could we possibly believe we know what truth is relative to space?

Until 300 years after Christ the world was known to be flat by most people.

Up until Galileo in 1615 everyone believed the earth was the center of our solar system.

Up until 10 years ago the expansion of our universe was known absolutely to be slowing down since the big bang, now scientists are scrambling to figure out why the expansion is actually speeding up.

Now they claim they know there is "dark matter" that they can't see, but it has to be there because nothing else could explain the known scenario based off their previous models of understanding. They don't have faith in the unseen God who proves Himself to us daily, but they can have faith in an unseen, unproven hypothesis?

It sure will be a major shock to them when they see why the universe is speeding up its expansion.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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