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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14000
06/09/05 03:39 AM
06/09/05 03:39 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
This is the correct procedure for a righteous judge to follow. But what if that judge loves his son so much that he submits himself to the penalty, and dies in the place of the lad, letting him go free?
There's no court in the world where this would be allowed, as this is not justice. One person cannot be imprisoned for the crimes of another. This is the argument the Moslem's make against Christianity. This system of "justice" is the heigh of injustice.
If somehow the judge could become the son and die as the son and the son yet live, *that* would be just, and show the gravity of the sin the son had committed. That's much closer to what Christ actually did. He died *as* us, not simply instead of us, like a designated hitter.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14001
06/09/05 07:21 PM
06/09/05 07:21 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John, In the illustration, Christ is the judge who dies for his son, not the slain brother. The city is the universe and the other lads are the unfallen beings. Now let’s imagine this world with just the natural results of sin and no judicial punishments. Does adultery bring suffering? Yes! Homicides? Yes! Theft? Yes! But just imagine how this world would be like if there were no judicial punishments. Ikan, quote:
To equate civil jurisprudence as equal to the Ways of God is what has always created Inquisitions, Star-chambers and man-made theocracies; man loves to pretend to act like the Almighty.
Because men pretend to be gods, this does not mean that the Almight cannot act like the Almighty; that the Supreme King cannot act like a king; that the supreme Judge cannot act like a judge.
Tom,
You know that this thing of a judge excusing or of the court not permitting someone to die in the stead of another belongs to the modern western jurisprudence, which does not mean that it is the only valid system of justice or that it is better than other systems of justice. The point is that we are clearly told that the Author of the law and Creator of men died in the stead of men suffering the penalty of the law.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14002
06/10/05 01:25 AM
06/10/05 01:25 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
R: In the illustration, Christ is the judge who dies for his son, not the slain brother. The city is the universe and the other lads are the unfallen beings.
The last time I read the scripture it said: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And it also said: Him, … ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
As far as the universe, they saw and they would have nothing to do any more with Satan’s justice idea. So now, there are two diametrically opposed justice systems: one in this sinful world which follows Satan’s model; the other in the rest of the universe which is of God.
quote:
R: Now let’s imagine this world with just the natural results of sin and no judicial punishments. Does adultery bring suffering? Yes! Homicides? Yes! Theft? Yes! But just imagine how this world would be like if there were no judicial punishments.
Why I do not know why there should be any problem, I guess this world would just live forever, since you do not think that sin is deadly. Or maybe you realize that there would be pretty much sudden destruction.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14003
06/10/05 06:27 AM
06/10/05 06:27 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Rosangela,
If you where to read the two-three first chapters of the letter to the hebrews, you would recognise much of what has been written in this thread the last week.
/Thomas
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14004
06/10/05 08:51 AM
06/10/05 08:51 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
Ikan,
quote:
To equate civil jurisprudence as equal to the Ways of God is what has always created Inquisitions, Star-chambers and man-made theocracies; man loves to pretend to act like the Almighty.
Because men pretend to be gods, this does not mean that the Almighty cannot act like the Almighty; that the Supreme King cannot act like a king; that the supreme Judge cannot act like a judge.
Apparently you missed my point: So I will try again.
Civil courts (as what was conveyed in your parable) can only judge by sight and circumstances and cannot decide by what is in ANY man's heart. They are Ceasar, and not God.
"Religious" courts that attempt to forgive or not forgive based on morals or doctrines they agree to also cannot see in the heart, BUT attempt to do what your parable illustrated: judge the heart. This is Anti-Christ, and not God.
I'm not denying God's right to Judge, I am against your equating His ways of judging as being like either of these two ways. He does not judge to kill, but judges to let each have what he trully desire: Sin if you want to keep it, Life if you come to Christ and give Him your heart in fact, not a judicial agreement. This surely IS reaping what one has sown; this is pure Justice.
His ways are not as you illustrate at all, as I have understood your posts, which are becoming a bit more muddled IMHO since this parable cropped up.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14005
06/10/05 10:21 AM
06/10/05 10:21 AM
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Phil, I'm not "accusing" anyone of anything. I'm quoting back to you what you yourself have said, here and in other places. This idea that God sort of benignly will destroy sinners at the end of the millennium only as a by-product of His revealing His glory, reveals but a partial understanding of how He deals with sin. It is true that God is not a commandment breaker, as you say. That doesn't preclude Him from killing directly. Jesus spoke the sixth commandment as, "Thou shalt do no murder." Matthew 19:18. There's a big difference between murder and justified killing. God has engaged in justified killing many times throughout history, and will continue this at the end of the millennium. You repeatedly talk about the lake of fire event, as if that's all there is to consider -- what about events previous to now? Sodom and Gomorrah, for example. The Flood. Nadab and Abihu. Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. The killing of the 185,000 Assyrians by the angel of the Lord. The slaying of the first-born in Egypt, also by the angel of the Lord. Ananias and Sapphira. Herod Agrippa I (angel of the Lord again; see AA 152.1). Examples abound. God does kill, justifiably, on occasion. Actively, directly. Not just as a by-product of revealing His glory to mortals. (Were the torrential rains of Noah's time a manifestation of God's heat/light/glory? Far from it.) Take the lake of fire event itself, for that matter: you and Tom E. seem to think it will be caused only by God revealing His glory. But Ellen White plainly states that He will also cause molten lava to erupt from the bowels of the earth, and that this will join with the fire that falls from heaven upon the wicked. See GC 672.2. She even refers to the lava beneath the earth's surface as "the weapons concealed in its depths." Whose weapons? God's weapons! This doesn't make God some vengeful "gangster," as you suggest. It makes Him Who He is: "And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." Exodus 34:6,7. He is both Righteous Merciful Father, and the Just Judge Who says, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19. Overemphasizing the former to the exclusion of the latter gives an inaccurate, unbalanced view of His character. But God is not mocked. Thomas, we shouldn't overemphasize the latter vengeful characteristic, you're right. But we shouldn't attempt to underplay it either, as has gone on here.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14006
06/10/05 01:38 PM
06/10/05 01:38 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Civil courts (as what was conveyed in your parable) can only judge by sight and circumstances and cannot decide by what is in ANY man's heart. They are Ceasar, and not God.
If you committed a crime, you committed a crime; this is a fact, no matter what is in your heart. Now the question is: if you commit a crime and your repentance is a sincere one, would it be just and correct for a judge to release you without a punishment? Don’t think just about you (since you have sincerely repented) - think about all those who are observing the conduct of the judge (in a sense, the judge is being judged too, isn’t he?).
You said God doesn't judge to kill, but it's His own glory which will kill. Who do you think will believe that He doesn't judge to kill?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14007
06/11/05 03:24 AM
06/11/05 03:24 AM
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Thomas, I just noticed this: quote:
Rosangela,
If you where to read the two-three first chapters of the letter to the hebrews, you would recognise much of what has been written in this thread the last week.
Do you honestly think that Rosangela has never read the book of Hebrews? Isn't that sort of a flippant thing to say?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14008
06/10/05 06:21 PM
06/10/05 06:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
If you committed a crime, you committed a crime; this is a fact, no matter what is in your heart. Now the question is: if you commit a crime and your repentance is a sincere one, would it be just and correct for a judge to release you without a punishment?
"(18) I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
(19) And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
(20) And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
(21) And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
(22) But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
(23) And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
(24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry." (Luke 15:18-24)
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14009
06/10/05 07:08 PM
06/10/05 07:08 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by John:
Thomas, I just noticed this: quote:
Rosangela,
If you where to read the two-three first chapters of the letter to the hebrews, you would recognise much of what has been written in this thread the last week.
Do you honestly think that Rosangela has never read the book of Hebrews? Isn't that sort of a flippant thing to say?
John
So every time you quote or refer to the Bible or EW to me for instance, you are assuming that I have not read it before? There would not be very much quoting done if only that which one was sure the others had not before read was to be quoted/refered.
/Thomas
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