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Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141348
04/18/12 03:27 PM
04/18/12 03:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I listen to the Bible and the SOP on my iPod every day for an hour or more while walking Fiona, our sweet and precious dog. It is such a blessing.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Mountain Man] #141349
04/18/12 04:10 PM
04/18/12 04:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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As you know, not every Christian believes people are born again "dead to sin" and "awake to righteous". Most people I meet believe rebirth happens first and then begins a lifelong process of slowly discovering the truth and gradually overcoming sinful traits of character. Others feel everything believers think, say, and do (while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature) is stained with sin and selfishness. The truth is, however, the moment people experience the miracle of rebirth something miraculous happens, namely, Jesus implants within them a new nature, which comes complete with a new heart, new mind, new will, new desires, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies, new appetites, new affections. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
First, they must be emptied of all selfishness. They will be cleansed vessels unto honor. {1888 134.1}

When our hearts are emptied of all selfishness, and cleansed by the Spirit of Christ, we shall be vessels meet for the Master's use. {AUCR, August 1, 1902 par. 8}

It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression. {UL 18.3}

Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature. {ST, July 26, 1905 par. 6}

Often their natural characteristics strove for the mastery. But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 13}

The power of truth is to transform heart and character. Its effect is not like a dash of color here and there upon the canvas; the whole character is to be transformed, the image of Christ is to be revealed in words and actions. A new nature is imparted. Man is renewed after the image of Christ in righteousness and true holiness. {6BC 1117.15}

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

The idea that people are born again sinful and selfish is not supported in the Bible or the SOP. "All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin." {SC 59.4} The very opposite is true of people who experience real rebirth. "In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within." {RH, July 30, 1901 par. 11} "Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion." {HP 20.3}

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Mountain Man] #141444
04/21/12 09:50 PM
04/21/12 09:50 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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SDA
Active Member 2015

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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
There are two Baptisms, one by water and one by fire.

Some people are blessed to be prepared for both simultaneously, others it takes years. It all depends on whether we let go of the sin that besets us. Do we stay under His wings, or come and go as we please?

The Centurion that Peter was called to baptize as his first experience with gentile believers had already received the Holy Spirit before being baptized by water and this was a sign to Peter that the Gentiles were next to receive the truth.

The thief on the cross received both that day and was assured salvation.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141474
04/22/12 03:16 PM
04/22/12 03:16 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
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Brother M&M;

God our wonderful Father lovingly tries to take the harmful things out of our hands, but we like children protest and say He's being mean to us and we cry and make a noise. But When we grow up, we find He was right all along. Some people grow into Christ faster than others.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141478
04/22/12 04:04 PM
04/22/12 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, how do you define and describe "genuine conversion"? Ellen defines and describes it this way: "Genuine conversion is transformation of character. New purposes, new moral tastes are created. Defects of character are overcome. Truth, with its sanctifying power, brings the entire man into obedience to Christ." {TSA 30.2} She also wrote:

Quote:
The conversion of the human soul is of no little consequence. It is the greatest miracle performed by divine power. Actual results are to be reached through a belief in Christ as a personal Saviour. Purified by obedience to the law of God, sanctified by a perfect observance of His holy Sabbath, trusting, believing, patiently waiting, and earnestly working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, we shall learn that it is God that worketh in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. --Manuscript 6, 1900.

In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. . . . {HP 20.2}

Conversion is a change of heart, a turning from unrighteousness to righteousness. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in Him, the repentant sinner receives pardon for sin. As he ceases to do evil and learns to do well, he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God. He sees that in order to follow Jesus he must separate from the world, and after counting the cost, he looks upon all as loss if he may but win Christ. He enlists in His army and bravely and cheerfully engages in the warfare, fighting against natural inclinations and selfish desires and bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily he seeks the Lord for grace, and he is strengthened and helped. Self once reigned in his heart, and worldly pleasure was his delight. Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion. . . . {HP 20.3}

Let us not forget that in his conversion and sanctification man must cooperate with God. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," the Word declares. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12, 13). Man cannot transform himself by the exercise of his will. He possesses no power by which this change may be affected. The renewing energy must come from God. The change can be made only by the Holy Spirit. He who would be saved, high or low, rich or poor, must submit to the working of this power. {HP 20.4}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. . . . {Mar 237.1}

A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. The religion of God is a firm fabric, composed of innumerable threads, and woven together with tact and skill. Only the wisdom which comes from God can make this fabric complete. There are a great many kinds of cloth which at first have a fine appearance, but they cannot endure the test. They wash out. The colors are not fast. Under the heat of summer they fade away and are lost. The cloth cannot endure rough handling. {Mar 237.2}

Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings man into a new relation with God. Old things, his natural passions and hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, pass away, and he is renewed and sanctified. But this work must be continual; for as long as Satan exists, he will make an effort to carry on his work. He who strives to serve God will encounter a strong undercurrent of wrong. His heart needs to be barricaded by constant watchfulness and prayer, or else the embankment will give way; and like a millstream, the undercurrent of wrong will sweep away the safeguard. No renewed heart can be kept in a condition of sweetness without the daily application of the salt of the Word. Divine grace must be received daily, or no man will stay converted. . . . {OHC 215.2}

Ellen clearly says "genuine conversion" results in people abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature and maturing in the fruits of Spirit. They are dead to sin and awake to "righteousness and true holiness." They begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception, that is, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, "perfecting holiness" "more and more unto the perfect day."

This isn't to say they are incapable of sinning. But to do so, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus, at which point they resurrect the old man and resume where they left off sinning. Repentance restores the relationship their sin severed and they resume where they left off abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. The idea that Jesus abides in souls half converted waiting for them to crucify self is unbiblical (not saying you believe this).

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Mountain Man] #141485
04/22/12 04:30 PM
04/22/12 04:30 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
You have this point very well comprehended.

But please remember to be truly and genuinely converted, first you must receive the Spirit of Truth. No false doctrines can be held on to. Purging the guile leads to greater faith which leads to genuine conversion by witnessing Christ.

So many liberal Christians would say "as long as they know Christ they are converted" but Satan comes claiming to be Christ.

The Seventh Day Adventist Message must be received in order to receive the extra measure of oil to be fully converted for the end times. Then you can know the knowledge of the glory of the Lord.

The test is not just the Sabbath issue, but it is the sign. Other issues include the state of the dead, immortality of the soul, the sanctuary to know where to find Jesus, and how the Lord will appear in the clouds and not in the secret chambers.These understandings are a filter from lies, if they speak not according to this word there is no light in them. That is what Jesus says to us to know the wheat from the tares.

And never forget the promise of more present truth in the end, we have the right to know more about the glory of the Lord than any prophet in history while still on earth. These are they who are translated without seeing death, the 144,000. They sing the song not only of Moses, but of the Lamb who stood before the wrath of the Father without an intercessor just like they who are alive after probation. The filter is; they will not contradict the foundation messages of the end time church. Embracing our SDA history is the sign that we are prepared to advance in the truth.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141521
04/23/12 07:42 PM
04/23/12 07:42 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
John 16:13
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

The Spirit of Prophecy is the Spirit of Truth.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Mountain Man] #144313
07/30/12 08:22 AM
07/30/12 08:22 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, how do you define and describe "genuine conversion"? Ellen defines and describes it this way: "Genuine conversion is transformation of character. New purposes, new moral tastes are created. Defects of character are overcome. Truth, with its sanctifying power, brings the entire man into obedience to Christ." {TSA 30.2} She also wrote:

Quote:
The conversion of the human soul is of no little consequence. It is the greatest miracle performed by divine power. Actual results are to be reached through a belief in Christ as a personal Saviour. Purified by obedience to the law of God, sanctified by a perfect observance of His holy Sabbath, trusting, believing, patiently waiting, and earnestly working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, we shall learn that it is God that worketh in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. --Manuscript 6, 1900.

In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. . . . {HP 20.2}

Conversion is a change of heart, a turning from unrighteousness to righteousness. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in Him, the repentant sinner receives pardon for sin. As he ceases to do evil and learns to do well, he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God. He sees that in order to follow Jesus he must separate from the world, and after counting the cost, he looks upon all as loss if he may but win Christ. He enlists in His army and bravely and cheerfully engages in the warfare, fighting against natural inclinations and selfish desires and bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily he seeks the Lord for grace, and he is strengthened and helped. Self once reigned in his heart, and worldly pleasure was his delight. Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion. . . . {HP 20.3}

Let us not forget that in his conversion and sanctification man must cooperate with God. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," the Word declares. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12, 13). Man cannot transform himself by the exercise of his will. He possesses no power by which this change may be affected. The renewing energy must come from God. The change can be made only by the Holy Spirit. He who would be saved, high or low, rich or poor, must submit to the working of this power. {HP 20.4}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. . . . {Mar 237.1}

A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. The religion of God is a firm fabric, composed of innumerable threads, and woven together with tact and skill. Only the wisdom which comes from God can make this fabric complete. There are a great many kinds of cloth which at first have a fine appearance, but they cannot endure the test. They wash out. The colors are not fast. Under the heat of summer they fade away and are lost. The cloth cannot endure rough handling. {Mar 237.2}

Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings man into a new relation with God. Old things, his natural passions and hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, pass away, and he is renewed and sanctified. But this work must be continual; for as long as Satan exists, he will make an effort to carry on his work. He who strives to serve God will encounter a strong undercurrent of wrong. His heart needs to be barricaded by constant watchfulness and prayer, or else the embankment will give way; and like a millstream, the undercurrent of wrong will sweep away the safeguard. No renewed heart can be kept in a condition of sweetness without the daily application of the salt of the Word. Divine grace must be received daily, or no man will stay converted. . . . {OHC 215.2}

Ellen clearly says "genuine conversion" results in people abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature and maturing in the fruits of Spirit. They are dead to sin and awake to "righteousness and true holiness." They begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception, that is, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, "perfecting holiness" "more and more unto the perfect day."

This isn't to say they are incapable of sinning. But to do so, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus, at which point they resurrect the old man and resume where they left off sinning. Repentance restores the relationship their sin severed and they resume where they left off abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. The idea that Jesus abides in souls half converted waiting for them to crucify self is unbiblical (not saying you believe this).



Short saying,if we die before a sinless perfect character is achieved, we still go to heaven, because the imputed righteousness of Christ is sufficient. Right?

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144327
07/31/12 11:16 AM
07/31/12 11:16 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
The thief on the cross is a great example of what grace is.

Nothing good of his own except faith in Christ, expressed at the last moment.

And if this qualify him for heaven, then all what God wants from us is to have faith in Christ, no matter the record of our life, how evil it was, how deep we are entangled in the web of sin and the lust of the flesh, we are pardoned, forgiven and justified for heaven cause of our faith in Christ as the Son of God, our sin Redeemer and the Creator of heaven and earth.

Too many people have no faith in Christ and reject Him, it is not easy to make them believe. Thus, to have faith in Christ and believe for what he is, what he has done for us, what he prepared for us, is what God wants from us the most (John 6:28,29; John 3:36). And for that, justification unto eternal life is the free gift (Ephesians 2:8, 9).

If we must labor "the best" with all our heart and mind and time to reach sinless perfect character, where is "He justified the ungodly?"

If eternal life is a reward for a successful achievement of the sinless perfect character through a life time labor in self scarifying through power of the joint operation between the Spirit and our will, then it is no longer a free gift, but a reward indeed.

But eternal life is the free gift for every one believer, justified sinners, which is the grace of God.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144339
08/01/12 08:41 PM
08/01/12 08:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, excellent points. Thanx for sharing. Good to see you. It's been awhile. No matter how mature we become in Christ, no matter how many temptations we resist - the truth is, We are saved by grace. We cannot work our way to heaven, but we can and must allow heaven to work its way in us. Thank you, Jesus.

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