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Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Mountain Man] #144347
08/02/12 11:12 AM
08/02/12 11:12 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
MM.

Please advice whether this sinless perfect character that we must achieve, is a prerequisite to enter heaven and have eternal life?

If reading sister White books and quotes you gave, it seems yes.

Meanwhile, justification and eternal life is God free gift to humanity based on what Christ had done for us that we accept and made effective through faith.

Thus, a Free gift with Christ as the focus of faith, versus a joint operation of labors between the Spirit and our will (grace + works) to attain sinless perfect character as the target, which is prerequisite to enter heaven and have eternal life.

Am I wrong?

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144348
08/02/12 11:20 AM
08/02/12 11:20 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
A free gift versus hard discipline work of self sacrifyng.

Jesus as the focus of faith to make God's grace effective versus sinless perfect character as a target, which is prerequisite to enter heaven.

Free gift vs works

Jesus vs self

Am i wrong?

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144355
08/02/12 11:35 PM
08/02/12 11:35 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Yes, a sinless, perfect character is a prerequisite to enter eternal life. Otherwise Adam wouldn't have been expelled from Eden.
And yes, if we still don't have a perfect character, we inherit eternal life through the perfect character of Christ, which covers ours. But if we have been saved, we will strive each day to live more and more in harmony with God's will, to have a character more and more like Christ's character. Otherwise we haven't been saved. This is what both the Bible and Ellen White say.

1Ts 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification

Heb 12:14 Strive ... for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Rosangela] #144360
08/03/12 07:43 PM
08/03/12 07:43 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Take these words in deeply and you will have your answers fulfilled, peace in the name of Jesus.

"Those who at Pentecost were endued with power from on high, were not thereby freed from further temptation and trial. As they witnessed for truth and righteousness they were repeatedly assailed by the enemy of all truth, who sought to rob them of their Christian experience. They were compelled to strive with all their God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. Daily they prayed for fresh supplies of grace, that they might reach higher and still higher toward perfection. Under the Holy Spirit’s working even the weakest, by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}
The lapse of time has wrought no change in Christ’s parting promise to send the Holy Spirit as His representative. It is not because of any restriction on the part of God that the riches of His grace do not flow earthward to men. If the fulfillment of the promise is not seen as it might be, it is because the promise is not appreciated as it should be. If all were willing, all would be filled with the Spirit. Wherever the need of the Holy Spirit is a matter little thought of, there is seen spiritual drought, spiritual darkness, spiritual declension and death. Whenever minor matters occupy the attention, the divine power which is necessary for the growth and prosperity of the church, and which would bring all other blessings in its train, is lacking, though offered in infinite plenitude. {AA 50.1}
Since this is the means by which we are to receive power, why do we not hunger and thirst for the gift of the Spirit? Why do we not talk of it, pray for it, and preach concerning it? (JSOT; Especially since He is lacking in so many) The Lord is more willing to give the Holy Spirit to those who serve Him than parents are to give good gifts to their children. For the daily baptism of the Spirit every worker should offer his petition to God. Companies of Christian workers should gather to ask for special help, for heavenly wisdom, that they may know how to plan and execute wisely. Especially should they pray that God will baptize His chosen ambassadors in mission fields with a rich measure of His Spirit. The presence of the Spirit with God’s workers will give the proclamation of truth a power that not all the honor or glory of the world could give. {AA 50.2}
With the consecrated worker for God, in whatever place he may be, the Holy Spirit abides. The words spoken to the disciples are spoken also to us. The Comforter is ours as well as theirs. The Spirit furnishes the strength that sustains striving, wrestling souls in every emergency, amidst the hatred of the world, and the realization of their own failures and mistakes. In sorrow and affliction, when the outlook seems dark and the future perplexing, and we feel helpless and alone,—these are the times when, in answer to the prayer of faith, the Holy Spirit brings comfort to the heart. {AA 51.1}
It is not a conclusive evidence that a man is a Christian because he manifests spiritual ecstasy under extraordinary circumstances. Holiness is not rapture: it is an entire surrender of the will to God; it is living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God; it is doing the will of our heavenly Father; it is trusting God in trial, in darkness as well as in the light; it is walking by faith and not by sight; it is relying on God with unquestioning confidence, and resting in His love. {AA 51.2}
It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, “the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father.” It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, “He shall not speak of Himself.” John 15:26; 16:13. {AA 51.3}
The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}
The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: “When He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.” John 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If the sinner responds to the quickening influence of the Spirit, he will be brought to repentance and aroused to the importance of obeying the divine requirements. {AA 52.2}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144363
08/03/12 10:16 PM
08/03/12 10:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
MM. Please advice whether this sinless perfect character that we must achieve, is a prerequisite to enter heaven and have eternal life? If reading sister White books and quotes you gave, it seems yes. Meanwhile, justification and eternal life is God free gift to humanity based on what Christ had done for us that we accept and made effective through faith. Thus, a Free gift with Christ as the focus of faith, versus a joint operation of labors between the Spirit and our will (grace + works) to attain sinless perfect character as the target, which is prerequisite to enter heaven and have eternal life.

Am I wrong?

We are saved by faith. We are saved based on what Jesus accomplishes for us. We cannot work our way to heaven or do anything to earn eternal life. We can, however, forfeit eternal life by refusing, neglecting, or failing to cooperate with the agencies of heaven to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. We are born again dead to sin, awake to righteousness, "complete in" (Col 2:10) Christ. "Perfect and complete in all the will of God" (Col 4:12).

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Rosangela] #144372
08/04/12 12:39 PM
08/04/12 12:39 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Yes, a sinless, perfect character is a prerequisite to enter eternal life. Otherwise Adam wouldn't have been expelled from Eden.
And yes, if we still don't have a perfect character, we inherit eternal life through the perfect character of Christ, which covers ours. But if we have been saved, we will strive each day to live more and more in harmony with God's will, to have a character more and more like Christ's character. Otherwise we haven't been saved. This is what both the Bible and Ellen White say.

1Ts 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification

Heb 12:14 Strive ... for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.


Ah, Adam was perfect and sinless for he was God direct creation. Eternal life is not a prerequisite for him unless he sinned.

Our case is different, we are sinner redeemed by Jesus atonement. Eternal life is not a prerequisite for us, because eternal life is a fee gift based on God's grace we accept and made effective through faith in Christ. This what the bible said!

Strive for holiness, yes, but not as a prerequisite for heaven, otherwise grace is no more grace. A free gift is not a prerequisite, even English is not my language and never take an English course, but at least I understand the difference.

Holiness and sinless perfect character we might obtain through a walk after the Spirit with Christ as our focus, for the target is Christ to remain in Him by faith, not the result of it, more over as a prerequisite for heaven? Isn't He the end of the law? The goal, the target? And if we sinned, He forgave all our sins.

Faith has no use if we have no love, love is greater than faith, and love is fruit of the Spirit. If love is greater than faith, it must be also greater than holiness, sinlessness. Romans 2:14-16 tell us about that.

We must strive for holiness indeed, and if we sinned, God forgave our sins, and we do not loose our salvation because of it. Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Look at the great example of grace, where a sinner was justified for heaven and eternal life, the thief on the cross never strive for holiness or sinless perfect character, but Christ justify him for heaven and eternal life, just because he had shown faith at the last moment of his life.

By grace we are saved through faith, justification for heaven and life eternal is a free gift, and if a free gift, it is not a reward for something as a prerequisite.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144373
08/04/12 12:44 PM
08/04/12 12:44 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Take these words in deeply and you will have your answers fulfilled, peace in the name of Jesus.

"Those who at Pentecost were endued with power from on high, were not thereby freed from further temptation and trial. As they witnessed for truth and righteousness they were repeatedly assailed by the enemy of all truth, who sought to rob them of their Christian experience. They were compelled to strive with all their God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. Daily they prayed for fresh supplies of grace, that they might reach higher and still higher toward perfection. Under the Holy Spirit’s working even the weakest, by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}
The lapse of time has wrought no change in Christ’s parting promise to send the Holy Spirit as His representative. It is not because of any restriction on the part of God that the riches of His grace do not flow earthward to men. If the fulfillment of the promise is not seen as it might be, it is because the promise is not appreciated as it should be. If all were willing, all would be filled with the Spirit. Wherever the need of the Holy Spirit is a matter little thought of, there is seen spiritual drought, spiritual darkness, spiritual declension and death. Whenever minor matters occupy the attention, the divine power which is necessary for the growth and prosperity of the church, and which would bring all other blessings in its train, is lacking, though offered in infinite plenitude. {AA 50.1}
Since this is the means by which we are to receive power, why do we not hunger and thirst for the gift of the Spirit? Why do we not talk of it, pray for it, and preach concerning it? (JSOT; Especially since He is lacking in so many) The Lord is more willing to give the Holy Spirit to those who serve Him than parents are to give good gifts to their children. For the daily baptism of the Spirit every worker should offer his petition to God. Companies of Christian workers should gather to ask for special help, for heavenly wisdom, that they may know how to plan and execute wisely. Especially should they pray that God will baptize His chosen ambassadors in mission fields with a rich measure of His Spirit. The presence of the Spirit with God’s workers will give the proclamation of truth a power that not all the honor or glory of the world could give. {AA 50.2}
With the consecrated worker for God, in whatever place he may be, the Holy Spirit abides. The words spoken to the disciples are spoken also to us. The Comforter is ours as well as theirs. The Spirit furnishes the strength that sustains striving, wrestling souls in every emergency, amidst the hatred of the world, and the realization of their own failures and mistakes. In sorrow and affliction, when the outlook seems dark and the future perplexing, and we feel helpless and alone,—these are the times when, in answer to the prayer of faith, the Holy Spirit brings comfort to the heart. {AA 51.1}
It is not a conclusive evidence that a man is a Christian because he manifests spiritual ecstasy under extraordinary circumstances. Holiness is not rapture: it is an entire surrender of the will to God; it is living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God; it is doing the will of our heavenly Father; it is trusting God in trial, in darkness as well as in the light; it is walking by faith and not by sight; it is relying on God with unquestioning confidence, and resting in His love. {AA 51.2}
It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, “the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father.” It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, “He shall not speak of Himself.” John 15:26; 16:13. {AA 51.3}
The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}
The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: “When He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.” John 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If the sinner responds to the quickening influence of the Spirit, he will be brought to repentance and aroused to the importance of obeying the divine requirements. {AA 52.2}


As long there is not a word about sinless perfect character as a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, I have no objection.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Mountain Man] #144374
08/04/12 12:53 PM
08/04/12 12:53 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
MM. Please advice whether this sinless perfect character that we must achieve, is a prerequisite to enter heaven and have eternal life? If reading sister White books and quotes you gave, it seems yes. Meanwhile, justification and eternal life is God free gift to humanity based on what Christ had done for us that we accept and made effective through faith. Thus, a Free gift with Christ as the focus of faith, versus a joint operation of labors between the Spirit and our will (grace + works) to attain sinless perfect character as the target, which is prerequisite to enter heaven and have eternal life.

Am I wrong?


We are saved by faith. We are saved based on what Jesus accomplishes for us. We cannot work our way to heaven or do anything to earn eternal life. We can, however, forfeit eternal life by refusing, neglecting, or failing to cooperate with the agencies of heaven to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. We are born again dead to sin, awake to righteousness, "complete in" (Col 2:10) Christ. "Perfect and complete in all the will of God" (Col 4:12).


What the bible tell me about loosing heaven and eternal life is only when I draw back from faith (Hebrew 10:38).

When we sinned, we confess our sin and God forgave us.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

What you said is an example of those who has no faith in Christ, and live for self.

But a faithful believer is also a sinner justified because of his faith, when he sinned, confess, and he will be forgiven without loosing his salvation.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144383
08/04/12 09:49 PM
08/04/12 09:49 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Strive for holiness, yes, but not as a prerequisite for heaven, otherwise grace is no more grace.

James, it's not a prerequisite for heaven. Ellen White never said that. It's the evidence that heaven is in your heart. And yes, the moment the thief on the cross was justified and born again, his life, which consisted of just a few hours, was different.

Speaking about Wesley after his conversion, Ellen White says:

Quote:
He continued his strict and self-denying life, not now as the ground, but the result of faith; not the root, but the fruit of holiness. The grace of God in Christ is the foundation of the Christian's hope, and that grace will be manifested in obedience. Wesley's life was devoted to the preaching of the great truths which he had received--justification through faith in the atoning blood of Christ, and the renewing power of the Holy Spirit upon the heart, bringing forth fruit in a life conformed to the example of Christ. {GC 256.3, italics in the original, bolds supplied}

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144388
08/04/12 10:47 PM
08/04/12 10:47 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

As long there is not a word about sinless perfect character as a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, I have no objection.


Originally Posted By: Rosangelina
James, it's not a prerequisite for heaven. Ellen White never said that.


Sorry Brother Septenno and sister Rosangelina but there is something wrong with your statements.

"Their Christian character must be without a blemish, or they will be pronounced unfit to be taken to a holy heaven, to dwell with pure, sinless beings in God’s everlasting kingdom." {ApM 29.2}

Here is the power of forgiveness... pay close attention please.

"Then Jesus “lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.” The accusers saw that Jesus not only knew the secrets of their past sins, but was acquainted with their purpose in bringing this case before him, and had in his matchless wisdom defeated their deeply laid scheme. They now became fearful lest Jesus would expose their guilt to all present, and they therefore “being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last; and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.” {2SP 350.2}
There was not one of her accusers but was more guilty than the conscience-stricken woman who stood trembling with shame before him. After the Pharisees had hastily left the presence of Christ, in their guilty consternation, he arose and looked upon the woman, saying, “Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more.” {2SP 351.1}
Jesus did not palliate sin nor lessen the sense of crime; but he came not to condemn; he came to lead the sinner to eternal life. The world looked upon this erring woman as one to be slighted and scorned; but the pure and holy Jesus stooped to address her with words of comfort, encouraging her to reform her life. Instead of to condemn the guilty, his work was to reach into the very depths of human woe and degradation, lift up the debased and sinful, and bid the trembling penitent to “sin no more.” When the woman stood before Jesus, cowering under the accusation of the Pharisees and a sense of the enormity of her crime, she knew that her life was trembling in the balance, and that a word from Jesus would add fuel to the indignation of the crowd, so that they would immediately stone her to death. {2SP 351.2}
Her eyes droop before the calm and searching glance of Christ. Stricken with shame, she is unable to look upon that holy countenance. As she thus stands waiting for sentence to be passed upon her, the words fall upon her astonished ears that not only deliver her from her accusers, but send them away convicted of greater crimes than hers. After they are gone, she hears the mournfully solemn words: “Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more.” Her heart melts with penitential grief; and, with gratitude to her Deliverer, she bows at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out in broken accents the emotions of her heart, and confessing her sins with bitter tears. {2SP 352.1}

This is how to attain the perfection of character that permits us to enter the kingdom of heaven. To recognize our unworthiness and repent before the MERCY of Jesus. Then He enters our hearts and makes us His own, implanting His righteousness and faith. Thus we are seen as Christ before the Father and permitted into heaven in His name.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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