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Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters #143131
06/06/12 11:00 AM
06/06/12 11:00 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Below are two letters written by two different women regarding the immoral fall of Samuel Pipim. Pipim is scheduled to be rebaptized June 9th, this coming Sabbath. There are quite a number of people who believe the Michigan Conference is really doing wrong by rebaptizing him at this time.

Pipim has his own website and is posting his side but many have not heard this information.



Pipim has posted on his website, a letter, referring to a couple other letters written by other people that most people have not read. Here is what Pipim wrote ~ http://drpipim.org/component/content/article/1-latest/201-ananswertoeveryone.html

And here are the two letters. The first one is by Lynda du Preez - wife of Ron du Preez who is employed by the Michigan Conference, and attends the same church that Pipim attends - the Ann Arbor, MI church.





Quote:
REGARDING DR. SAMUEL KORANTENG-PIPIM

To the Ann Arbor Seventh-day Adventist Church Board Members (meeting on May 21, 2012) [this was updated on June 1, 2012]:

The following information is only a brief summary of what I learned recently (in April 2012) while I was in Botswana, Africa, after spending hours listening to and talking with church leaders and others involved with this tragic situation – including the Church Elder who assisted; the fourth passenger in the vehicle with the Chaplain, Dr. Pipim and this student, and with the 20-year-old girl with whom Dr. Pipim had immoral sexual relations, twice. I, as well as some of these leaders, also listened to the phone recordings which the young girl made when Dr. Pipim called her - clearly, this young girl was not in agreement with what Dr. Pipim did to her. On the recordings the young girl questions Dr. Pipim about various aspects, and he struggles to explain himself (or to ignore her question.).


So, it was with great sadness that I heard the following account of a clear case of clergy sexual abuse/misconduct that transpired there in Botswana in January 2011. And, since serious misinformation has continued to circulate regarding this matter, and since I am very concerned about the physical, emotional and spiritual welfare of others (especially young people), I am compelled to let you, my fellow Adventists, know the following information (so that appropriate action may be taken for all concerned):

1. JANUARY 2011. In mid-January 2011 Dr. Samuel Koranteng-Pipim was the speaker for a Bible Lecture Series (i.e., like a Week of Prayer) at the University of Botswana, in Gaborone. In addition to speaking/preaching, Dr. Pipim provided counsel for those requesting such. Prior to these meetings, the organizers had arranged for a private meeting room on campus right near the venue, so that Dr. Pipim could counsel students there; and so that they could monitor the counseling. However, Dr. Pipim refused to use this room – claiming that students didn’t always show up; so he demanded that they arrange for a hotel where there was a suite and internet access – this hotel ended up about 15-20 minutes away. So, the organizers arranged for a taxi to be at Dr. Pipim’s disposal.

2. FRIDAY. On January 21, this 20-year-old female student, who was actively involved in organizing and leading out at those meetings by Dr. Pipim, came to Dr. Pipim for help with a deeply personal problem. Before she had become an Adventist less than nine months earlier she had been involved in some sexually inappropriate activities. She was still feeling guilty about this; and in spite of her commitment to Christ, had begun to doubt her conversion experience. So she now came to Dr. Pipim for counsel. They met in his hotel lobby that Friday where he counseled her. She was satisfied that all counseling was complete.

3. Then later Friday evening, Dr. Pipim came to the young lady again and conversed with her, and mentioned a sermon of his from the previous week – which she had missed because of a visiting relative. Dr. Pipim urged her to come back to his hotel to get that CD. ( Obviously Dr. Pipim could have brought her the CD on Sabbath morning - but he did not.)


4. SABBATH. On January 22, after Dr. Pipim ended his Bible Lecture Series on Saturday night, Dr. Pipim asked the young lady to come back to his hotel, accompanied by the Chaplain, to pick up the CD of Dr. Pipim, which he said he wanted her to have. The Chaplain felt that this request seemed rather strange since Dr. Pipim had himself asked to have a meeting the next morning (Sunday) with conference officers and all the organizers (including this young lady) – when Dr. Pipim could have easily given her the CD in person. Nevertheless, trusting the well-known speaker, the Chaplain drove Dr. Pipim and the young lady to the hotel – only to pick up the CD, and not for counseling. [The Chaplain confirms that he took this young girl to Dr. Pipim’s hotel only to pick up the CD, and not for counseling].

5. Fully expecting that Dr. Pipim would give the CD to the young lady, and then immediately send her back to campus with the taxi (which was at Dr. Pipim’s constant disposal) the Chaplain left them and went to drop off another student at home. So Dr. Pipim took this young lady to his hotel suite, where she expected to pick up the CD, and then go home by taxi. However, once there, Dr. Pipim began to engage in some disturbing actions: He delayed giving her the CD, and asked her if she wanted to take a shower. After she refused, he then took a shower. Then, postponing giving her that CD even longer, he told her to rest in his bedroom while he packed his bags for the trip home the following afternoon. Totally exhausted from the meetings and then a long Sabbath, she fell asleep fully clothed, still patiently waiting for that CD.

6. SABBATH/SUNDAY. On January 23, startled, she awoke to find Dr. Pipim touching her inappropriately. He ignored her pleas to stop, and emotionally and psychologically overpowering her, he forced himself on her sexually (intercourse), which was against her wishes. She asked him if it wasn’t a sin against God and against his wife. But it had no effect. She lay there with tear-stained face, in shock for hours, and then drifted off to sleep – only to be awoken early and again Dr. Pipim forced himself on her sexually (intercourse), which again was against her wishes.

7. Before Dr. Pipim had her leave his hotel room, he gave her some of his books and CDs – including the CD which she had gone to pick up in the first place. Then he handed her a US $100 bill, which made her feel like a prostitute. And then, before daylight, he sent her away before people would notice her leaving the hotel.


8. Despite engaging in this shocking behavior, just a few hours later Dr. Pipim showed up to lead out at the organizational meeting which he had arranged, so they could reflect on his Bible Lecture Series. At this Sunday morning meeting were conference officials, the Chaplain, and the young people who helped to organize and lead out – including the victim.

Yet Dr. Pipim acted as though he had done nothing wrong at all, and showed no outward signs of remorse. And the young lady, still in a state of shock (and blaming herself, as many victims do) remained quiet.

9. A church elder soon noticed that the young lady had gone through a radical personality change overnight, literally. This friendly, outgoing, sweet person had become sullen, quiet and withdrawn. This elder kept trying to encourage her, but she refused to talk. In the meantime, Dr. Pipim sent the victim many emails (including photos of himself) in which he now continued to spiritually and emotionally abuse her. He claimed that she was "one of the main reasons the Lord sent me" to the University of Botswana (email of 4 Feb 2011); and that he was her "admirer" (Feb 2011), as well as her "daddy" (as per a transcribed call from Berlin, Germany).

10. Eventually, the victim opened up to the concerned church elder and told him what Dr. Pipim had done. Shocked by this revelation, which explained the radical change in her, he urged her to talk to a pastor; but she immediately "freaked out" replying vehemently that she never wanted to talk to another pastor again (because of what Dr. Pipim had done to her)!


11. Later, after she agreed, the church elder informed the Chaplain, who also listened to her story. The Chaplain then took her to the three officers of the South Botswana Conference. Because her allegations were about Dr. Pipim, the leaders found it difficult to believe what she conveyed to them, and they asked her for substantial evidence. Thus, when Dr. Pipim called her again, she simply recorded their discussion on her mobile phone, and gave the recording to the conference leaders.

12. They had no question that the recordings confirmed that Dr. Pipim had had sex with this young lady against her wishes, as she had told them. The conference officers then referred her to the Botswana Union officers. When they too listened to this young lady’s account, and then heard the recordings – they too realized she was telling the truth. Hence, a leaders in Botswana informed the President of the Southern Africa-Indian Ocean Division, who immediately called Dr. Pipim to inform him about what they knew and had proof of with the recordings. With all of the irrefutable evidence, Dr. Pipim conceded that he did have immoral sexual relations with this 20-year-old student.

13. In Botswana they kept a low profile on this matter, seeking to not drag the good name of the Church through the mud, while at the same time trying to help the victim, whose account of events that dreadful night has remained consistent.

14. In contrast, however, Dr. Pipim has chosen to publicly share his frequently changing and distorted version of his crime. For example, whereas his counseling session with her was on Friday only, he now claims that a "desperate woman" came to him for advice on that Saturday night. Also, Dr. Pipim alleges that there was no other time to help except that Saturday night (even though, if he needed to counsel her more, he could have done so on Sunday morning or later before he flew out in the afternoon). Also, Dr. Pipim now claims that his mistake was in allowing a young lady into his room – yet Dr. Pipim is the one who had orchestrated time alone with her at his hotel, late on Saturday night!

15. There are several other concerns regarding Dr. Pipim, some of which I will briefly note here:

A. On the recording, to the young victim, Dr. Pipim says, "I accept full responsibility," and "would not, in any way, blame you for anything;" yet, Dr. Pipim has publicly (in writing, speaking, etc) blamed and accused her, repeatedly – even though he repeatedly apologizes to her for what he did – but clearly, his main concern was that he got caught.

B. And, Dr. Pipim has repeatedly claimed that it was " a temptation of a moment;" yet, it is clear that his actions prove otherwise. And because he kept her at his hotel that night, at least the second time he violated her, was indeed pre-meditated.

C. He alleges publicly that he came forward on his own with "candor" and "integrity;" yet he kept his crime a secret for about four months, until he was confronted with irrefutable evidence, caught, and then he was able to resign – thus avoiding being fired.

D. He publicly repeated the promise of "cancelling all speaking appointments;" and ye he has preached and spoken dozens of times in various countries, while he was not even a member; and allowing those who introduced him to call him "pastor" or "elder" of "man of God". See his new ministry/website/presentations at http://eaglesonline.org/resources/audio/

E. Whereas previously he preached a high standard of biblical ethics, he is now promoting dangerous anti-biblical views, such as, when one cheats on one's spouse this is a private sin – and only God and the sex partner need to be confessed to (and not the spouse); and that that pastor can then continue in fulltime ministry as though nothing has happened. (This means that a pastor/person could cheat multiple times and just confess to the person involved and God, and then just carry on with the ministry).

F. He claims to have been healed and restored by God (so that he can "minister" again); yet he has failed to really make things right with the victim and her family. He does apologize many times on the recordings for what he did to her – yet, because he still continually and publicly makes false accusations, clearly he has not made things right.

G. He alleges that what happened was "consensual" "adultery" (which resulted in his removal from membership, and his ministerial credentials removed, and his ordination annulled); yet, based on evidence that he forced himself on her sexually (intercourse) against her wishes, the South Botswana Conference/Union chose to retain the victim as a member in full and regular standing – and she still holds a church office as well.

16. In view of concerns such as the above, I would like to urge all those seriously concerned about this matter to prayerfully consider what the proper Christ-like response should be. The concern of the leaders in Botswana (as well as myself) is essentially four-fold: (1) For Dr. Pipim to be honest about what he has done, to confess, and to make things right with the victim and her family, etc.; (2) For healing for Dr. Pipim’s family, friends and former colleagues who have been deeply affected by this; (3) For spiritual discernment for the many followers of Dr. Pipim, who have believed his repeated manipulation of truth, and are now lapping-up his new non-biblical teachings; and (4) For courage and strength for the victim and her non-SDA family, as they continue the long journey back from this abuse inflicted upon them by a professed pastor, youth leader, counselor and global preacher. While in Botswana, this victim’s uncle/guardian told me that Dr. Pipim has never come to him to apologize, for what he did to his 20-year old niece.


As a pastor's/administrator's/professor's wife of nearly 33 years, this is probably one of the most difficult things I have ever had to deal with. A friend of mine forced himself sexually (intercourse) upon a 20-year-old girl, twice! Now what do I do? I want to be supportive and encouraging; yet I do not want to enable and encourage him or his family in an inappropriate or unhealthy way. But, since I am also concerned about other young people, and about the church at large, there is nothing easy about this – either way a friend is caught in the middle. I am sorry it has come to this, regarding a friend of mine for more than 20 years. Many tears have been shed over this matter, and it is with deep sorrow that I present to you now this brief summary.

I trust that the Lord, by His grace, will continue to guide, even through this crisis, for His glory.

Lynda du Preez

You may contact me via email if you have further questions.

lyndaraye@yahoo.com

P.S. The AA Church pastor has the contact information of those involved (in Botswana).


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #143132
06/06/12 11:01 AM
06/06/12 11:01 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
The following letter was written by Nicole Parker, back in January 2012. Nicole is a Counselor, and deals with situations like this on a daily basis. Her husband is a teacher in the Religion Dept. at Southern College.



Quote:
January 5, 2012

Dear Sam,

I have read the letter that you posted recently on Facebook, and have decided I must write to you. Perhaps you find it confusing and discouraging that while you have done your best to show repentance and to follow biblical process regarding your fall, you are met with such resistance from former fellow-soldiers in the Lord’s work. None of us have written comments of encouragement or delight in your plans to re-launch yourself in ministry, and no one is "liking" your letter. You may feel that we are being unreasonable and even graceless in our approach. I know that the silence is hurtful, but it is all that many of us feel we can offer. However, as you declare repeatedly that you want so much to follow the will of God, I am writing to you to attempt to help you understand the resistance and hesitance I and many others feel.

You have written, "Hypocrisy is an unpardonable sin." I have been silent all of these months, but in light of your words, and in light of the fact that you seem determined to launch yourself into ministry again, I cannot hold my peace any longer. Know that I write to you, not for the purpose of wounding, but of healing. I pray for you and your family every day, and I do not take lightly the responsibility of lifting you and your future up before the Lord. But I have come to the conclusion that I cannot just pray for you. I must share with you what is upon my heart. As Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, there were tears in His voice. But He continued to rebuke them, only becoming more direct as time went on in His ministry. This was not because He was becoming angry with them, but because He knew they were advancing in their sin against the Holy Spirit—pushing away the voice of conviction—and He must do something desperate to get their attention. Those who will not be molded must be broken. I pray this is not the case in your situation. So I write to you as a friend, with earnest intention to reach your heart. I hope that you will prayerfully consider my words.

You may know that I did two seminar presentations on sexual addiction at GYC this year, as well as one on healing from sexual abuse. As this is an area in which I deal with many people on an ongoing basis, I have felt more and more compelled to put together a presentation to reach those who I cannot speak with personally. I spoke directly to the issues involving your situation, though I did not use your name. I felt that by your persistent determination to exalt yourself to the position of spiritual advisor to others, when you have completely disqualified yourself for it, you had forced me to do so.

The heart of my presentation on sexual addiction was the allegory of the plant. I used two plants in particular, the dandelion and the bamboo, to illustrate sexual addiction. In my seminar I explained that the power of these plants lies in their root system, and that by the time a sexual addiction is manifested by outward behaviors, it is already deeply rooted in other sins of the soul. This is a fact, and one that you must realize yourself, as you examine your own life. I don’t have to hear a story to know that there was a long process that led to your fall. You have attempted to paint yourself as a mighty spiritual warrior who made a mistake because he was in a "far country" and who did not have enough safeguards in place. This is a boldfaced lie. You and I both know that this is not the first time you have done such a thing. It is only the first time you have been caught, and if you had not been confronted with the undeniable truth about what you had done, you would not have voluntarily come forward. Yet you have artfully worded your confessions to make it appear that you did so voluntarily. When you realized that the facts were coming to light, that this had happened in January and you had not confessed for many months, you adjusted your confessions. I watched the progression of your testimony over the months, and you have evidenced clearly what spirit is behind your efforts. You cannot let go of the spotlight, of your identity as a spiritual advisor and one who can be trusted and admired. So you pretend that there was not deep spiritual decay in your heart leading up to this event. But as a counselor and a Christian, I know what happens first. The hollow, rotten center of the mighty oak is only revealed when it falls, but the decay has been going on for years before the fall. So it is in the area of sexual sin especially. When a man knows just what tremendous issues are at stake and goes forward with his lustful actions anyway, one can know that this was not the beginning. For you to do such a high-risk act, there have been many comparatively low-risk acts already done. Whether that was pornography or a prostitute in Amsterdam, I don’t know. But you know. And you have determinedly pressed forward with your pretense of holiness, giving your followers the illusion that you are still worthy of trust. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

As you probably know, for many months I have been in touch with the young lady with whom you were sinfully involved. Since I do not know if this email will be seen by someone other than yourself, I am going to refer to her as N.M. I have developed a friendship with her, and am deeply moved by her anguish as she has dealt with the consequences of your actions. This is part of the reason I feel so strongly that I must write to you. You seem determined to promote yourself as one "qualified for ministry" by your fall, and I feel very strongly that under the circumstances, nothing can be farther from the truth. If falling into sin is a prerequisite for being able to minister to sinners, Jesus Himself was not qualified.

I know that you have sought to find forgiveness, and perhaps you feel that you have obtained the forgiveness and healing needed from God. One might feel, "What more can I do?" Confession, repentance and bitter time of reflection have all been a part of the last few months for you. Now you may not be able to understand why your fellow leaders and partners in ministry feel that this is not enough. I can understand why you might think that you are now qualified to minister again.

However, there is a sin for which there is no forgiveness. It is not adultery, of course, but as stated in Matthew 12:31, "the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men." I know that I am not explaining something to you that you do not know, so please bear with me and listen to what I am saying about this sin.

The sin against the Holy Spirit is the sin which Satan himself commits. It is the sin the Pharisees committed. What do they have in common? Simply put, they were skilled at denial—lying to themselves. Even now, though Satan knows that Jesus is coming to defeat him, and that he can do nothing to stop God from winning, he lives in continual defiance, determined to win the great controversy though he knows he cannot. Though he stood in the presence of the Father, and knew His character of love as perhaps no other angel did, Ellen White says Satan hates the concept of self-sacrificing love. "Its very existence he denies." Though he knows that God is love, he is spending every moment of his life attempting to disprove it. In a word, he is

lying to himself. This is why he is known as "the father of lies." This is one manifestation of the sin against the Holy Spirit—choosing what we want to believe, and convincing ourselves of it.

When you first submitted your written resignation, accompanied by your explanation of events, I read it and immediately said to Alan, "He’s not telling the truth." As a Biblical counselor, I deal with many people who struggle with addictions, especially sexual ones. I am well aware of the process that leads to an event such as yours. Perhaps a person who is ignorant of this process would believe the explanation, "I took precautions, but I did not take enough," and "it was the sin of a moment." However,

you and I both know better. There was a long process that led to such an event. No one ends up in bed with a person who is not their spouse on an impulse. This is true a hundred times over in this particular situation.

If you were on the tenth floor of a building and you climbed into the elevator and pressed the right button, you could be transported in a matter of seconds to the bottom floor. However, this is not how adultery happens. The process leading to adultery is not an instantaneous event, but a step-by-step descent, a persistent

pushing away of the voice of the Holy Spirit. This is why adultery is sufficient to break even the sacred marriage vow.

Before one engages in such a high-risk sin (risking your own life, your wife’s life, your ministry, reputation, and family), there are a thousand second looks at low necklines or high hemlines, or fantasies, or episodes of viewing pornography, or trips to the hotel desk to pay cash to watch a movie that you do not want to be recorded on your bill. No earnest Christian young man ends up in the back seat of a car with his girlfriend without first pushing away the voice of conscience, rationalizing many times, "It’s okay to go sit in a deserted parking lot alone in the dark, because we would never…"

You and I both know this—there is a process that leads to an adulterous event. When a mighty-looking tree falls in a storm, we are shocked to see the hollow rottenness that has consumed the inside of the tree. It looked fine until it fell. But there was a long process that led to that fall. Adulterous behavior, the fall of the tree, is the RESULT, not the impulsive event, of a long process of spiritual decay. And anyone experienced in marriage and ministry should be well aware of this lengthy process of spiritual rotting.

In your confession and resignation you sought to make it appear that you were a spiritually solid person who had had a momentary fall because of exhaustion, being in a "far country" and not having enough safeguards in place. Then you made it appear that you had voluntarily, immediately come forward with this confession, out of the conviction of your heart and the earnest desire to do right and only right. Because of the way you worded your confession, I knew immediately that you were not being honest about what had happened.

Contrast this, if you will, with what could have happened. Suppose that you had made the mistake of committing adultery, but had immediately sent the girl away, called your wife and called or written to Jay and resigned. What if you had immediately admitted that there had been a long process of spiritual decay going on in your life, which had culminated in an act that you had never dreamed you could be capable of doing? What if you had immediately, in tears of repentance, sent N.M. away and called the chaplain to counsel her and support her? While these actions could not have undone the damage that had been done, they would have altered the situation completely by showing us that while you had allowed a long process of decay to happen, you were listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit and were determined to turn around, to no longer live the life of a hypocrite. For as you state yourself, "Hypocrisy is an unpardonable sin."

You know the difference between this scenario and what actually happened. It is so evident. Contrast your integrity with the integrity of Sebastien in confessing his crime. You knew what he should do—tell the truth—and you told him so. And you also knew what you should do—tell the truth. The argument that you could not tell your wife because of her health is meaningless to me. If you had been thinking of her health you would not have had sex with a girl who you KNOW has been sexually active in the past, and who is in a country where the HIV rate is commonly one in three! If you had not been caught, I strongly doubt you would have ever told your wife. It also begs the question of your history. Is this the first time you have done something like this? As a counselor, I don't even have to ask. I know. No one does what you did to N.M. as a first-time offense.

What you have done is not like the sin of Peter in denying Christ. Rather, it is like the sin of Achan. You covered your sin until there was no further opportunity to cover it. For this reason, you can no longer be trusted. I fear that the rut of self-deception, of living a lie and pretending all is well spiritually when it is not, is so deep in your mind that you will fall into it naturally and not even realize it.

You have felt that you were like Mary Magdalene, who had fallen into great sin, but was deeply repentant and ready to be used by God. However, a deeper look at your actions shows you rather to resemble Simon the leper. You have referred to your adulterous sin as "not even a fall—just a little slip." You have not been the victim, but the predator—the one who persistently pursued a vulnerable girl, and used her body repeatedly to satisfy your lustful desires—despite her protests. Then you have referred to her as a "desperate woman," when the truth was, she only went with you to the hotel because you had organized it with the chaplain and she believed she would stay in his company the entire time. Then you paid her like a prostitute and sent her on her way with your "inspirational materials."

However, perhaps the height of evidence of your sin against the Holy Spirit is your deliberate attempt to become a "father figure" to this girl who you had already deeply wounded. In doing so, you gave evidence that you did not actually feel defiled by your sin, or at best thought you could atone for it by becoming her spiritual guide. The best I can think is that you thought you could perhaps help her through the damage you had done. But the reality is probably that much of what motivated you was the fear that she would tell others what you had done.

If you had told the truth immediately and gone to others to help you to untangle the deep-seated web of self-deception and fake spirituality, perhaps you could have been reinstated in ministry someday. Perhaps there would have been some way we could have trusted you. But as if you have not given us enough reason to doubt your credibility, now you begin to promote ideas such as that a man does not need to confess even to his own wife if he has violated his vows to her. Furthermore, you have been heard to declare that this was not even adultery, because it was not premeditated. (As if one can keep a girl in his room overnight and wake her up at 5 am and have sex with her again, without it being premeditated.)

If Herman Cain had attempted to convince even the non-religious American public of such ludicrous ideas, he would have been laughed off the stage. Do you mean to say that those adulterers who are the best liars can be spared the discomfort that others who are not so good at it must be forced to face? That a wife’s only safety is to ASK her husband every time he comes home from a trip, if he has been faithful to her? What would you have said if your wife had asked you such a question?

I do not even know how to describe to you how profoundly this gives evidence that you cannot be trusted. If you are so deeply self-deceived as to actually be able to persuade yourself of these things, you cannot possibly be trusted to safely guide others in the paths of righteousness. You confessed because you had been caught, and knew there was no way to conceal what you had done any more. This is sufficient by itself to show that you have no right to be respected as a spiritual leader again.

The reason this is so alarming to me is that this is a powerful, compelling evidence that you have been committing the sin against the Holy Spirit. The unpardonable sin is simply this: rationalizing away the voice of your conscience. Had you not already seared your conscience terribly, you would have been instantly overcome with intense grief and horror at what you had done to N.M. Instead, you kept her in your room overnight. The fact that you did this, and that you were then capable of getting up and preaching in following weeks, that you could go home and live a lie before your wife (letting her believe that you are a faithful husband when you are not), that you could have the gall to encourage this girl to look to you as a father figure, to call you Daddy, is inconceivable to me.

Your sin against the Holy Spirit had obviously grown to massive proportions even before this happened. But to continue to live a lie, pretending to be a spiritual giant and cultivating the admiration of your "fans" for months, is the surest evidence to me that you are totally disqualified for spiritual leadership or ministry. To have hardened yourself thus into the sin against the Holy Spirit will take a significant

amount of time, and intense confrontation with the Word of God, to heal. It is not sufficient for you to simply attempt to heal by yourself—you need someone else to assist you in confronting your self-deception. And even if you are ever restored to having a sensitive conscience, to put you into a position of influence again is too great a risk of young people’s lives.

From reading the chapters of your book that you have sent around to various people, it is evident that you have painted this situation as a consensual sexual encounter. You have called it an "affair." I would like to defend you by saying that perhaps you do not understand that in English, this word "affair" is used only to refer to consensual, romantic relationships. However, I think you are aware of this. However, due to the obvious sin against the Holy Spirit that you had committed, you were able to convince yourself that you could repair the damage done to N.M. by becoming a father figure to her. In fact, it seems that you have convinced yourself that she actually wanted you to have sex with her! This was not the case. Can you actually say that you did not see the tears flowing down her cheeks, and did not hear her protests and her asking you if God allowed you to do this?

What you have done is a crime. Others who have done exactly the same thing are sitting in prison. To have then cultivated a close relationship with her as a "daddy" only made it an emotionally incestuous and exponentially more damaging to her. It is also one of the strongest evidences of the advanced state of your sin against the Holy Spirit.

I ask you to prayerfully search your heart and consider what I am saying. You have lied to yourself, convincing yourself that this was not a great fall, only a "little slip." You have lied to yourself by calling yourself an eagle, and declaring yourself to still be an eagle, still a man of excellence, despite this series of unspeakably horrible acts. First, you raped (I know this is a strong word, but I believe it reflects her testimony) a young woman, a brand-new Christian and Adventist. Then when she confronted you about this horrific crime, you manipulated her emotionally, attempting to silence your conscience by repairing the damage you had done and becoming her "daddy"—thus creating a relationship even more damaging because you were even further warping her perspective of the love of God the Father. Finally, you have lied to the world, painting yourself as a mighty spiritual giant who slipped up for a moment with a "desperate woman" but immediately repented and publicly confessed. What would your friends and eager disciples think if you had the moral integrity to admit that you kept her there all night and woke her up to have sex with her again? What about your repeated attempts to get her to undress (either to shower or put on a t-shirt) before you just finally did as you pleased?

You have attempted to silence the voice of conviction, rationalizing and procrastinating about repentance and only confessing when you had no other option. Now you even go so far as to promote the idea that a man who does such a thing does not have to admit or apologize to anyone except God and the person with whom he has had sex. This declaration of yours, all by itself, tells me far more than I ever wanted to know about the steps you already took before that night.

I know this has been a hard letter to read. It would be a very different letter if I knew you were not considering returning to public ministry and promoting your version of how to deal with adultery. I have had to write so strongly because I believe you are in grave danger of pushing away the pleading of the Holy Spirit and convincing not only yourself but others of a deadly lie. I urge you to take time to heal and to deal with the deeper root issues rather than serving up the superficial answers given in your book. I pray that you will not take my words lightly, but will prayerfully allow God to do what He needs to do to rectify this situation so that you may yet be saved, and some good may come from this situation.

I know what I have written is painful. I pray that the knife brings the deep-seated infection to the surface, that you may find healing in Christ.

Your friend,

Nicole


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #143133
06/06/12 11:02 AM
06/06/12 11:02 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
I give both of these women alot of credit for having the courage to speak out.

Anyone who has done what Pipim has done, should NEVER be allowed back in the Ministry ever again. Michigan Conference is supposed to be the "most conservative" of all the Conferences. Do they really think they are going to have God's blessing doing this? The church has truly reached an "all time low" when a man who has done what he has done is trusted by the Conference.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #143134
06/06/12 11:20 AM
06/06/12 11:20 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO

Last edited by Tammy Roesch; 06/06/12 11:21 AM.

Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #143201
06/08/12 09:58 PM
06/08/12 09:58 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
Anyone who has done what Pipim has done, should NEVER be allowed back in the Ministry ever again.


I take it you don't believe in forgiveness, mercy, or the power of God to convert and to use us again when we've committed grave errors.

Do you have scriptural support for your position?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143202
06/08/12 10:25 PM
06/08/12 10:25 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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I do believe that Dr. Pipim will never be able to have the same kind of ministry as he might have had. He will need to make some changes. That may well include changing countries (in this ever-shrinking world of ours). Mrs. White dealt with a similar situation in her day in which she counseled the gentleman to go overseas as a missionary. But, from the letters above, it appears Dr. Pipim may be in for some difficult years.

May God help him. And may the rest of us learn to accept some responsibility for our leaders in praying a hedge of protection around them every day--instead of just sitting back and scorning those among them who have fallen.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143209
06/09/12 12:40 AM
06/09/12 12:40 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Quebec
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
our leaders

Here lies the root of the problem - men and women lifted up as 'leaders' when Christ said "All ye are brethren".
The laity are taught to reverence and worship fallen men.

__________________

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: gordonb1] #143211
06/09/12 01:46 AM
06/09/12 01:46 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
our leaders

Here lies the root of the problem - men and women lifted up as 'leaders' when Christ said "All ye are brethren".
The laity are taught to reverence and worship fallen men.

__________________


I suppose Moses wasn't supposed to lead, nor David be king. Perhaps Paul wasn't to teach, admonish, and instruct either, since he was just "one of us."

Ellen White and the Bible both teach us to respect our elders and those that "have the rule over [us]." We are not to be "lord" over others, but there is nothing in God's Word that would erase leadership from among His people. The critical distinction is made where conscience comes in. No one has the right to dictate on matters of free choice and conscience to another. Leaders should, however, be servant to those under them, ready to help them in their individual situations and needs, and ready to give them guidance, counsel, and organizational support.

In any case, leaders we have, and leaders we need. May God bless them, as theirs is a most difficult position in which few appreciate their work and many criticize.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143223
06/09/12 02:47 PM
06/09/12 02:47 PM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
Anyone who has done what Pipim has done, should NEVER be allowed back in the Ministry ever again.


I take it you don't believe in forgiveness, mercy, or the power of God to convert and to use us again when we've committed grave errors.

Do you have scriptural support for your position?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
I believe in all of those things, BUT, that doesn't mean there are no consequences....he betrayed his trust, and never should be trusted with the youth again...

Quote:
I have no real ground of hope for those who have stood as shepherds to the flock, and have for years been borne with by the merciful God, following them with reproof, with warnings, with entreaties, but who have hid their evil ways, and continued in them, thus defying the laws of the God of heaven by practicing fornication. We may leave them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, after all has been done to reform them; but in no case entrust to them the guardianship of souls. False shepherds! Oh, can it be that the men who have been engaged in this work for a long time will corrupt their ways before the Lord after great experience and special light? {TM 428.2}


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #143224
06/09/12 02:52 PM
06/09/12 02:52 PM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
I'm sure you must know by now that the baptism was cancelled! Another woman, from 2 years ago, came to light...

Pipim Baptism Cancelled - 2nd Woman Comes Forward


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #143225
06/09/12 02:58 PM
06/09/12 02:58 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
I believe in all of those things, BUT, that doesn't mean there are no consequences....he betrayed his trust, and never should be trusted with the youth again...


Consequences? You're interested in consequences? Should that be our chief motivation in criticizing a fallen leader seeking to again serve the Lord?

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)


God did not remove David after his heinous crime. With what measure we mete, it shall be meted to us again. Let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Praise God that He is so merciful, or none of us would be preserved.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143227
06/09/12 03:34 PM
06/09/12 03:34 PM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
I believe in all of those things, BUT, that doesn't mean there are no consequences....he betrayed his trust, and never should be trusted with the youth again...


Consequences? You're interested in consequences? Should that be our chief motivation in criticizing a fallen leader seeking to again serve the Lord?

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)


God did not remove David after his heinous crime. With what measure we mete, it shall be meted to us again. Let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Praise God that He is so merciful, or none of us would be preserved.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Apparently you didn't read the quote from Testimonies to Ministers? or do you believe that somehow the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy contradict each other? It all fits together...there is no contradiction...


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #143240
06/10/12 01:29 AM
06/10/12 01:29 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
Tammy,

Ellen White never said anything that would lead me to believe Dr. Pipim has no chance to ever work for God again. I see no contradiction with her writings in this regard. Perhaps I have interpreted the statement you quoted differently from how you prefer to view it.

What concerns me most, here, is not what Dr. Pipim should or should not be allowed to do in the future, or what punishment should be his. God is in charge of those details, not me. What concerns me most is the polar opposites of attitude I see coming out here and in other forums between Dr. Pipim and his critics. Pipim is trying to find his way back to God. Meanwhile, there is much stone-throwing, fault-finding, and vicious gossip in general regarding Pipim's errors, and I see many in that crowd of scorners who are willing to jump to conclusions about what they think Pipim must be hiding.

God tells us that only HE can see the heart, whereas we see but the outward appearance. Then why is there so much speculation about Pipim's heart? We cannot see it, nor know it. We do not have the full record of his wrongs, nor should we. It would benefit no one. It would only serve to gratify Satan in his accusations against God before all watching.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. (Psalm 1:1)


While Dr. Pipim should certainly not be seeking to cover his own sins, according to the Bible, the rest of should be seeking almost the opposite. It benefits no one to "hang out the dirty laundry."

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:20)

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. (1 Peter 4:8)


Tammy, do you love Dr. Pipim?

Originally Posted By: The Bible
13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


My understanding is that Dr. Pipim is/has been/wants-to-be repentant. He may not have the full measure of repentance just yet. He may be like the doubting father whose son was possessed and brought to Jesus, saying, "Lord, I believe! Help thou mine unbelief." Yet the Bible record tells us what Jesus' response was and still can be to any of us who come to Him. He will in no wise cast out those who come to Him.

If Dr. Pipim were entirely unrepentant, and evidenced that, I might have different words here. But just because he does not choose to hang out all of his "dirty laundry" does not mean that he is unrepentant. There are things that it is never best to bring out before the eyes of other sinners. Like mindless sharks at the scent of blood, others may go into a feeding frenzy. Such seems the case here, sadly. People are tearing the man apart by their words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143253
06/10/12 11:58 AM
06/10/12 11:58 AM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Whatever you say about forgiveness and restoration does not demand of me that I accept Samuel Pipim's many teachings that do not fit into my understanding of Scripture and the teachings of Ellen G. White.

So many of our Bible teachers have studied the same questions thoroughly and come to the conclusion that it is Biblical to ordain women.

Many refer to 1 Tim. 3 without considering how the original Greek of verse 11 is being translated by many scholars, and is shown in a number of Bible translations which show that the same principles that are listed for men, apply to women as well. Just look at your KJV and notice that three words in that verse are rendered in italics which show that they are added to the original text by the translators. Then the word for "women" is rendered as "their wives" by those translators. To me this is a sign that some portions of our Bible have been manipulated by chauvinist males, probably the same who placed the comma in the wrong place in Luke 23:43.

Consider also how some of our pioneers rejected the testimony of the young Ellen Harmon because she was just a girl, and yet she was ordained by God himself, and she had no qualms about receiving the certificate and classification as an ordained minister in our church.

Add to that that Ellen White pronounced in 1895 that certain women in our church should be ordained, and that she never issued one iota against the ordination of female ministers in the church. How could she, when she herself was classified as an ordained minister?

In spite of this we still have these male chauvinists who think they can change and manipulate all of the facts according to their own desires. Then just now it has been revealed that one of the most expressive chauvinist of them all, an expert and scholar classifying the role of women in comparison with that of the male, has shown by his own example that such women are but playthings to gratify the lust of man.

We must not judge his relationship with the Lord, but actions must be taken to prevent his false teachings and actions from making our Church a safer haven for rapists and perverts rather than for our women and daughters.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Johann] #143255
06/10/12 03:19 PM
06/10/12 03:19 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Whatever you say about forgiveness and restoration does not demand of me that I accept Samuel Pipim's many teachings that do not fit into my understanding of Scripture and the teachings of Ellen G. White.

So many of our Bible teachers have studied the same questions thoroughly and come to the conclusion that it is Biblical to ordain women.

Many refer to 1 Tim. 3 without considering how the original Greek of verse 11 is being translated by many scholars, and is shown in a number of Bible translations which show that the same principles that are listed for men, apply to women as well. Just look at your KJV and notice that three words in that verse are rendered in italics which show that they are added to the original text by the translators. Then the word for "women" is rendered as "their wives" by those translators. To me this is a sign that some portions of our Bible have been manipulated by chauvinist males, probably the same who placed the comma in the wrong place in Luke 23:43.

Consider also how some of our pioneers rejected the testimony of the young Ellen Harmon because she was just a girl, and yet she was ordained by God himself, and she had no qualms about receiving the certificate and classification as an ordained minister in our church.

Add to that that Ellen White pronounced in 1895 that certain women in our church should be ordained, and that she never issued one iota against the ordination of female ministers in the church. How could she, when she herself was classified as an ordained minister?

In spite of this we still have these male chauvinists who think they can change and manipulate all of the facts according to their own desires. Then just now it has been revealed that one of the most expressive chauvinist of them all, an expert and scholar classifying the role of women in comparison with that of the male, has shown by his own example that such women are but playthings to gratify the lust of man.

We must not judge his relationship with the Lord, but actions must be taken to prevent his false teachings and actions from making our Church a safer haven for rapists and perverts rather than for our women and daughters.

I think you have just evidenced why people are so eager to tear Pipim apart upon having learned of his sins.

Everyone of us is a sinner. All of the best "scholars" of the Bible are sinners. The very writers of the Bible were sinners. Does that mean that we have liberty to tear them apart once we learn which sins were theirs? Does that mean we have extra license to do so when we happen to be on another side of a philosophical divide?

As regards those who feel the Bible wording was tampered with, I suppose that gives them license to reword whichever part they disagree with slightly to render it more "in line." I feel this is a very dangerous attitude. Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4 should be consulted along with the last chapter of the book. God has His own copyright upon His material which should not be taken lightly. Furthermore, He has promised to "preserve" His word. If one tries to say the KJV translation is full of errors of a grave nature, or if one claims that all translations are such, how is it then that the Bible has been preserved for us?

Saying the Bible is wrong is part of the "new theology" that is coming out in which people are exercising "higher criticism." Eternity alone will reveal the full results of such "education."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143258
06/10/12 08:15 PM
06/10/12 08:15 PM
Johann  Offline
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Iceland
It has often been stated that it was God Himself who wrote the KJV and therefore it must not be tampered with. When the RSV came I heard whole sermons in Michigan where the theme was, Do not permit any new version to replace God's own Bible.

Then I went to work in other countries where people spoke different languages and were using Bibles translated directly from the languages the original Bible writers had used. Here were also Seventh-day Adventists using different Bibles, and they had, basically, the same faith. There were only slight differences. One of them was the translation of 1 Tim 3 which was not translated by male chauvinists, like the KJV in that section. I was amazed when I first read it, so I consulted first with my Greek New Testament, but then I wrote to my conference to be sure I was not introducing something that was new and strange. The conference sent my question on to the Union and they sent it on to the Division of the General Conference. Some months later I received the reply that my "new" understanding was the correct one. Already 30 some years ago our General Conference knew what was the correct rendering, and therefor I am convinced that so many of our Bible Scholars are fully aware of this, in spite of the fact that there are also others who do not dare let go of the "tradition" of adhering to the faulty KJV rendering, because we are, just like the Catholic Church, very steeped in our old traditions.

For this reason I have been at odds with those dyed in the wool traditionalists on this veracity for more than 30 years, although my main discussions were connected with Samuelle Bacchiocchi, even though I was also in agreement with him on certain points. We also met face to face. People who compare this with being liberal, or whatever else they can think of, are very much ignorant of reality. Stating that this is higher criticism is as far from reality as the length of the Milky Way. My objections to his dangerous theories started a long time ago and not just when he reaped the results of his dangerous teachings, which some of you seem to want perpetrated in our church. So wanting to cleanse the Church from immorality and the teaching that permits such to flourish in the church - that is called heresy - by whom? What is needed in the church of Laodicea before the Second Coming? More infidelity?

In a way it reminds me of the farmer who came to me more than 50 years ago telling me his fellow church members were at fault he had to spend a couple of years in prison. An Adventist mother living in a city that was still in ruins from the bombs of World War II, sent her children to what she thought were safe havens with Adventist farmers.

He told me he'd send his wife out early in the morning to milk the cows while he remained in bed inviting the girl to join him in bed, first having worship where they prayed earnestly that Jesus would protect them from committing any sin that day. After that they went on a discovery where it was very important to find out if the girl was reaching sexual maturity. Obviously it was necessary for him to penetrate, but it was for a good purpose. Besides that they had already prayed for protection against any sin, so it was impossible for them to do anything sinful.

He felt the church had let him down by not attempting to convince the judge what a devout Christian he was, and therefore his actions had not been evil. Then he also felt the church should show him Christian love by reinstating him as a Sabbath School superintendent as soon as he got out of prison.

Should I have twisted the arms of church officers to reinstate the farmer, thereby paving the way for more criminal acts blessed by the church?

There is not much new under the sun!


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Johann] #143261
06/10/12 10:47 PM
06/10/12 10:47 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Johann,

What English version do you feel is better?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #143271
06/11/12 02:50 AM
06/11/12 02:50 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
I give both of these women alot of credit for having the courage to speak out.

Anyone who has done what Pipim has done, should NEVER be allowed back in the Ministry ever again.


I fully agree with Tammy.

What this man has done is considered a CRIME.
It is rape. It was not some "weak" moment either, it was planned and orchestrated.

Also, even as I read it, it seemed obvious that this was NOT the first time -- so was not at all surprised to hear others have "come forward".

The crime is magnified because this man was in a high position of trust. He being a high profile leader and minister, she being a student! Such misconduct is a breach of the fundamental basis of the relationship of a clergyperson with those who look to him to provide guidance and instruction and spiritual help.

The shepherd preying (NOT praying) but preying on his flock.

Real Men Don't Rape. Real men accept the responsibility to not harm another person. This should be a hundred times more important for a minister of the gospel!

This man seriously harmed that young woman. How many others has he harmed in like manner and then intimidated that to "tell" would hinder "the important work" of his ministry?


Yes, I am shocked!!!!
Very much so.

We condemn the crimes in the Catholic system yet do the same in ours???????

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: dedication] #143273
06/11/12 05:35 AM
06/11/12 05:35 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Dedication,

I agree with most of what you are saying. But I have a few concerns, too.

Part of the problem here is that we have people writing letters of accusation presuming to know what the man has done already in his prior experience before the one incident came to light. I am by no means trying to excuse him. I have no need to defend him. But I do not believe he is being tried fairly in the court of public opinion. That is just the problem--courts of public opinion where slanderous comments are made without proofs to back them up--that should be a crime too. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't like to see the accusations of there being many others when so far only one is positively identified, with a possible second, and tied to this issue (as of my present understanding). Another issue came up, which we are not yet informed as to the circumstances. We simply don't have, at least I don't have, sufficient evidence yet to say that he is a serial rapist. It frankly bothers me that people would jump to conclusions and declare the man guilty for that which they have no evidence.

All of that amounts to one thing: Evil surmising.

It may well be true. But until we know so, we best not open our mouths in judgment. Even if it is true, Philippians 4:8 gives us something to think about.

As for what we do know...certainly, it is an awful thing he did and certainly he has issues that need to be dealt with in his life. I also feel that many among our ministers are struggling with the same temptations for sexual sin, and we as a church do less than we should to address this area.

Here's another thing that bothers me. The women's letters have come forward and everyone seems to pounce on them to make an issue of genders out of it (not saying you are doing this), with words such as "chauvinism" and "equality." Many seem to overlook the fact that it was the menfolk who passed the word up the line to the GC, which took steps to remove Pipim from his position. They may not have written letters to be read in public, but had they not done their part, the women who wrote those letters might never have learned of the mess to begin with. The men did what they should have, and it appears they acted very responsibly, also paying attention to the woman's well-being.

And, really, should those women's letters have been published to all and sundry of the whole sordid mess? I think not. I think it should suffice us to know that Dr. Pipim has a moral weakness which renders him unable to offer personal counseling or to work with young women. We do not need the gory details! TMI!

Remember, by beholding we become changed. To see is to become. To think on is to see. And a situation like this one is of such a nature that to merely hear it, one's mind naturally gives it much contemplation. Therefore, the more the story spreads with all of its "salacious" detail (gossip), the more collateral damage potential it has.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143274
06/11/12 06:54 AM
06/11/12 06:54 AM
Johann  Offline
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For beautiful language I love the old King James version. It was around 1958 I noticed what problems the KJV was causing the Seventh-day Adventist Church on a World scale. The Sabbath School lessons for a quarter were a study of the Psalms. The author of the lessons based the study on the KJV. It was beautiful in the English speaking world as long as you used the KJV. Then I noticed how translators of the lessons in other parts of the world struggled with these lessons in countries where the Bibles had a more correct rendering of the original text. They would insert in the text of the lessons explanations that such and such a verse in English was so different that the questions and references did not fit to the text in their Bibles.

Fortunately there seemed to be no doctrinal differences, but just completely different pictures in the poetic language. I remember thinking then, Why do the authors not realize that we are a world church with a membership even larger who do not speak English? Why give these people the impression that the good Americans are using a different Bible?

Some time after that the Germans took a drastic measure to avoid any more King Jamification of Adventism. Now they write their own Sabbath School lessons, but I understand some confusion still remains as some German speaking countries use our world edition.

It so happens that I functioned as a Director of Sabbath Schools for nine years in two different countries. During that time I attended a number of meetings where we also discussed the lesson material and tried to solve some of the problems.

Already around 1960 the Sabbath School Department of the General Conference came to the realization that we are a world movement,and since then the editors of the lessons have tried to avoid references that are based solely on the wording of the KJV - or any other particular Bible translation. Unfortunately we still have some staunch scholars who have not yet woken up to the fact that we are a world movement.

Personally I am still very old fashioned by wanting to follow the principles outlined by Ellen G White, and I will never accept a teaching that is not fully in agreement with her writings. This includes that we are not to launch a new interpretation of Scripture on our own before we have consulted with others and seen that a number of other Bible students see the same possibility.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143275
06/11/12 07:20 AM
06/11/12 07:20 AM
Johann  Offline
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I agree with some of what you write.

My concern is that several scholars have gotten away with a faulty interpretation of Scripture and they keep preaching it from our pulpits and writing abut it in their books and magazines. It is this mis-representation of the Word of God which places about one half of the mankind God has created on a level where they can use the others as a plaything to satisfy their carnal lust. I believe we can apply this Bible text to what these men are doing:

Revelation 22:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

That is the seriousness of this issue.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Johann] #143276
06/11/12 08:04 AM
06/11/12 08:04 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
For beautiful language I love the old King James version. It was around 1958 I noticed what problems the KJV was causing the Seventh-day Adventist Church on a World scale. The Sabbath School lessons for a quarter were a study of the Psalms. The author of the lessons based the study on the KJV. It was beautiful in the English speaking world as long as you used the KJV. Then I noticed how translators of the lessons in other parts of the world struggled with these lessons in countries where the Bibles had a more correct rendering of the original text. They would insert in the text of the lessons explanations that such and such a verse in English was so different that the questions and references did not fit to the text in their Bibles.

Fortunately there seemed to be no doctrinal differences, but just completely different pictures in the poetic language. I remember thinking then, Why do the authors not realize that we are a world church with a membership even larger who do not speak English? Why give these people the impression that the good Americans are using a different Bible?

Some time after that the Germans took a drastic measure to avoid any more King Jamification of Adventism. Now they write their own Sabbath School lessons, but I understand some confusion still remains as some German speaking countries use our world edition.

It so happens that I functioned as a Director of Sabbath Schools for nine years in two different countries. During that time I attended a number of meetings where we also discussed the lesson material and tried to solve some of the problems.

Already around 1960 the Sabbath School Department of the General Conference came to the realization that we are a world movement,and since then the editors of the lessons have tried to avoid references that are based solely on the wording of the KJV - or any other particular Bible translation. Unfortunately we still have some staunch scholars who have not yet woken up to the fact that we are a world movement.

Personally I am still very old fashioned by wanting to follow the principles outlined by Ellen G White, and I will never accept a teaching that is not fully in agreement with her writings. This includes that we are not to launch a new interpretation of Scripture on our own before we have consulted with others and seen that a number of other Bible students see the same possibility.

Johann,

Perhaps during the lapses of time between your participations on this forum we have discussed in other threads the issues surrounding Bible versions. You might look up those topics and join in the discussion there. I think it would be of interest to you. Particularly, a recent discussion has pointed us to the debate over this topic that was in the church around the 1930s. A book was written by one of our theology professors on Bible versions titled "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated." HERE is a link to the post where this book is introduced online.

As for the language issues, part of the problem is that all Bibles since about 1901 have been translated from the Codex Alexandrinus/Vaticanus, which is a corrupt manuscript. People say the translations are accurate, and they may be right. But they don't realize that the translations are not of the same text that the KJV has come from. I have no problem with translations from the Textus Receptus. But why should I accept a translation from a "more ancient manuscript" that was edited (Greek/Hebrew manuscripts) by the likes of Westcott and Hort and the Jesuits?

Unfortunately, our church has turned a blind eye to the facts in the case because the leadership wanted to believe that being politically correct was best. The same attitudes of political correctness have colored a number of our other doctrines in today's world as well.

Satan will use the downfall of God's servants to advantage. He will use it to discredit their prior teachings, so that the truth is not taken to heart by the people. Such was the case with Jones and Waggoner. The people did not immediately accept their message, and when they later apostatized, the people used it as an excuse to reject it altogether.

The same might be true of Pipim. I'm not saying that everything he taught is to be taken as truth. But what I would caution is that one should not necessarily reject everything he taught just because of his later failure.

Mrs. White informed us that Jones and Waggoner had the right message in 1888. She did not change her view of this even after they had apostatized. This should be a lesson to us.

I don't understand your perspective on how Dr. Pipim's teachings would lower women to object status. Feel free to expound on your line of reasoning behind this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143277
06/11/12 11:02 AM
06/11/12 11:02 AM
Johann  Offline
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I knew this debate on the Textus Receptus vs.Westcottt and Hort was going on here. I did not intend to take part in that debate here, rather point out that a substantial number of competent Adventist scholars and Church leaders read their Bibles and the writings of Ellen White and arrive at a conclusion quite different from Samuelle Bacchiocchi, Pipim, Batchelor, and others.

In my estimation their teaching is a non-Biblical degradation of womanhood which, in some cases, can lead to what we are discussing here.

Several years ago I met with Leslie Hardinge who then was writing his doctoral thesis at the University of London. He told me of his discoveries that some of the first settlers of Iceland fled from the Roman Catholic invaders because they were forcing these early Christians to abandon the Sabbath.

Further studies now indicate that these Celts came up through Europe bringing with them the primitive Christianity, including the Sabbath and furthermore a high esteem of womanhood, including the ordination of women as pastors and teachers.

The Roman Catholics followed them with their military power, forcing them to abandon the Sabbath in favor of Sunday worship - and their high esteem of women, which did not please the pope.

It appears like these Celtic primitive Christians fled to the Shetland Islands, and that those who survived when the Roman Catholic onslaught reached those islands, fled farther west and north to Iceland. We also know that after the arrival of pagan Norwegian Vikings in 874 AD there were still a number of Celtic communities in Iceland. In 1000 AD it was voted by the Assembly that the pagans would become Christian. Some of the pagans did not like to be baptized then in the ice-cold waters near the Assembly so they were baptized in a thermal pool where I sometimes take our visitors for a Sabbath ride. The Catholic church did not have full sway here so the priests and bishops had children who carried the name of the father, even if they fooled the pope by keeping their wives at a distance.

Some of the Apostolic/Celtic attitude towards women remains with us, perhaps one reason many foreign visitors claim we have the most beautiful women in the world. At least we don't have to hide them and de-valuate their God-given importance the way some are doing, including attempts to get the Lord on your side by the way you read His Word.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Johann] #143279
06/11/12 11:46 AM
06/11/12 11:46 AM
Johann  Offline
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OK Mr. Green, even if the KJV is a translation of the "better" Textus Receptus, the translators had to insert three words not in the original into the text of their translation: "must", "their", and "be". in order for the text to say what they wanted it to say. (1 Tim 3:11)

It seems to me it was more than 50 years ago our MINISTRY magazine had an article questioning the KJV rendering, written by a competent Greek scholar who was an expert at Greek grammar.

I suppose this did not please those among us who preferred the Roman Catholic interpretation.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Johann] #143290
06/11/12 04:04 PM
06/11/12 04:04 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Johann,

One thing I like about the KJV is that when they have added words, either for grammar, or for clarity, they italicize them so that you know the words were added. The modern translations do no such thing, making you feel they are more accurate (as if they had not added anything), when in fact they have added or changed far more than the KJV ever hoped to.

As for 1 Tim. 3:11, I don't see how it figures large in the women's ordination issue. Those added words change the meaning very little. What are you going to do with the other verses in that same chapter to which no words were added, like these:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Timothy 3:2)

Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. (1 Timothy 3:12)


Regarding added words, the KJV is not impartial toward the women in that chapter either. As you may notice, the words "must" and "be" are added to the deacons in verse 8 before they are added to the wives in verse 11. They have done this to assist the grammar of the text, as proper English sentences need verbs. Without the verb added, it would not be a sentence. I hardly think one can fairly impugn the translators of the KJV for adding a verb, where no verb was in the original! The fact is, the modern versions will have added words here as well, they just don't italicize them, giving you a false sense of security.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143296
06/11/12 06:01 PM
06/11/12 06:01 PM
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gordonb1  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
One thing I like about the KJV is that when they have added words, either for grammar, or for clarity, they italicize them so that you know the words were added.

This is a common assumption, but only a general guideline.

The KJV includes supplied words which are not italicized but which can alter meaning if one does not study carefully.

______________

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143354
06/13/12 06:07 PM
06/13/12 06:07 PM
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kland  Offline
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Am I the only one that on the link of the first post to his answer letter comes across as an advertisement for his website? Just something about his letter makes me think of Ernie. Maybe it's unfounded, but wondered if it struck anyone else as, sales must go on.

Maybe he's truly just trying to explain things, but lack of internet marketer, he ain't.

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #143372
06/14/12 09:30 AM
06/14/12 09:30 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Johann,

Unfortunately, our church has turned a blind eye to the facts in the case because the leadership wanted to believe that being politically correct was best. The same attitudes of political correctness have colored a number of our other doctrines in today's world as well.

Satan will use the downfall of God's servants to advantage. He will use it to discredit their prior teachings, so that the truth is not taken to heart by the people. Such was the case with Jones and Waggoner. The people did not immediately accept their message, and when they later apostatized, the people used it as an excuse to reject it altogether.

The same might be true of Pipim. I'm not saying that everything he taught is to be taken as truth. But what I would caution is that one should not necessarily reject everything he taught just because of his later failure.

Mrs. White informed us that Jones and Waggoner had the right message in 1888. She did not change her view of this even after they had apostatized. This should be a lesson to us.

I don't understand your perspective on how Dr. Pipim's teachings would lower women to object status. Feel free to expound on your line of reasoning behind this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


1. Yes, Mr. Green, it is "politically" correct to follow the understanding of the majority of the fallen churches to avoid the severity of the persecution in the final battle for the truth. So, on that basis I understand your concern. This is definitely coloring the teachings of a number of our leaders as we are approaching the second coming.

2. It is interesting you should bring up the case with Jones and Waggoner. I have had to deal with that on the local level in one of my churches where some of my members seem to regard some of the writings of these men produced after their downfall as even more sacred than Scripture and Ellen White.

3. Pipim's present defense of his actions are to me a clear sign that his hermeneutics are weak and faulty. One of the strongest arguments voiced against Pipim's faulty theology is found in the reasons given by former president Jimmy Carter for leaving his own Southern Baptist church recently and also in Billy Graham's reasons for being in disagreement with his own church. Billy Graham states that he finds no reason in the Bible to go against the ordination of women. What is even more important to me is how many solid Seventh-day Adventist Bible teachers have shown on the basis of the Bible how faulty the arguments against the ordination of women are. But if you choose to side with the Pope, who does not care what the Bible says, that is your choice.

Last edited by Johann; 06/14/12 09:33 AM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Johann] #143479
06/18/12 03:33 AM
06/18/12 03:33 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Johann,

Regarding the last point you made, I must say that there are times when I side with the devil himself, because the devil will speak truth when it suits his purposes. If the pope speaks truth, we must be prepared to agree with it, if not with the man himself.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Tammy Roesch] #145139
09/08/12 07:43 PM
09/08/12 07:43 PM
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Gregory  Offline
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Quote:
I take it you don't believe in forgiveness, mercy, or the power of God to convert and to use us again when we've committed grave errors.


Forgiveness does not require reliefe from consequences.

A church treasurer who steals funds can be forgive, but that person should never handle denominational funds again. They have demonstrated a weakness and the chruch should protect them from being placed again in that situation.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Gregory] #145156
09/10/12 08:42 AM
09/10/12 08:42 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
So true, Gregory! Why cannot people see this when it comes to this topic?

I hope people have read Martin Weber's letter:



Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Gregory] #145162
09/10/12 08:51 PM
09/10/12 08:51 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Gregory
Quote:
I take it you don't believe in forgiveness, mercy, or the power of God to convert and to use us again when we've committed grave errors.


Forgiveness does not require reliefe from consequences.

A church treasurer who steals funds can be forgive, but that person should never handle denominational funds again. They have demonstrated a weakness and the chruch should protect them from being placed again in that situation.



Maybe. Is that how Jesus handled Judas? As I have read from the pen of inspiration, Jesus well-knew Judas' inclinations, and yet purposely placed him in the treasurer position that he might have opportunity to develop his character, one way or the other. He was never removed from that position, even when Jesus knew he was a thief. Mrs. White tells us that this is to be instructive for us.

I think, if nothing else, it should teach us not to make hasty decisions about removing the tares from the wheat before the harvest. It should help us not to attempt to create "one-size-fits-all" rules or policies. Each case has its own unique issues that must be dealt with, and without God's Spirit, we can never deal with things in a wise and loving, Christ-like manner.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: Green Cochoa] #152623
05/25/13 05:58 AM
05/25/13 05:58 AM
T
truthseeker  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 15
Colorado, USA
This is more than a man with a weakness! Have you all forgotten that rape is a "crime of violence"? This type of rape is much more pathological in that it involves calculation, manipulation, intimidation, deception and total spiritual hypocrisy. Why hasn't he been arrested?

Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters [Re: truthseeker] #152628
05/25/13 10:44 AM
05/25/13 10:44 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline OP
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
I totally agree with you....he is a criminal.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

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