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Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144414
08/06/12 12:01 AM
08/06/12 12:01 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,613
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Brother James, please pay close attention to this because you are loved, only misled.

"By the translation of Enoch the Lord designed to teach an important lesson. There was danger that men would yield to discouragement because of the fearful results of Adam’s sin. Many were ready to exclaim, “What profit is it that we have feared the Lord and have kept His ordinances, since a heavy curse is resting upon the race, and death is the portion of us all?” Satan was urging upon men the belief that there was no reward for the righteous or punishment of the wicked, and that it was impossible for men to obey the divine statutes. But in the case of Enoch, God shows what He will do for those who keep His commandments. Men were taught that it is possible to obey the law of God, that they were able by grace to resist temptation and become pure and holy. His translation was an evidence of the truth of his prophecy concerning the hereafter, with its award of immortal life to the obedient and of condemnation and death to the transgressor. {EP 49.3}

Did you catch it? Did you see? "Satan was urging upon men the belief... that it was impossible for men to obey the divine statutes".

This is why God told me to tell you, the words you said prove you are not with Him, or un-sanctified because Satan says it is impossible to stop sinning.

By faith Enoch “was translated that he should not see death, ... for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” Hebrews 11:5. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be “redeemed from the earth” (Revelation 14:3) at Christ’s second advent. Then, as before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, God’s people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ. Like Enoch they will warn the world of the Lord’s second coming and by their holy example will condemn the sins of the ungodly. As Enoch was translated to heaven, so the living righteous will be translated from the earth before its destruction by fire. See 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. {EP 49.4}

Since Jesus is at the door, and we are the generation who will see Him coming in the clouds, we better be without sin when He comes.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144457
08/08/12 03:18 PM
08/08/12 03:18 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Even the wage of sin is death, and we can't stop sinning, but in Christ God forgave all our sins when we confess, and as long we remain in Christ by faith, we remain saved, and will not loose our life.


This is where you are wrong and prove you are not sanctified. This can be corrected and do not think I am being aggressive towards you, which is not my intention, only to serve our perfect Christ Jesus.

It is possible to stop sinning as proven by Enoch and Elijah who would have never been allowed to enter heaven while still alive if what you say is correct.

"A few in every generation from Adam resisted his (Satan's) every artifice and stood forth as noble representatives of what it was in the power of man to do and to be, while Christ should co-operate with human efforts, to help man in overcoming the power of Satan. Enoch and Elijah are the correct representatives of what the race might be through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan was greatly disturbed because these noble, holy men were untainted amid the moral pollution surrounding them, perfecting righteous characters, and accounted worthy for translation to heaven. As they had stood forth in moral power, in noble uprightness, overcoming Satan’s temptations, he could not bring them under the dominion of death. He triumphed that he had power to overcome Moses with his temptations, and that he could mar his illustrious character and lead him to the sin of taking to himself glory before the people which belonged to God." {Con 26.1}

"In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning. {ST March 3, 1890, par. 3}

"Many bemoan the disobedience of Adam, which resulted in bringing sin, suffering, and death, into the world. Surely, such should cease to transgress. But instead of doing better themselves than Adam did, they follow a course of transgression, thereby increasing the tide of woe. But let the children of Adam, who have the example of their father before them with all its terrible results, stop sinning, instead of complaining of their father, while they themselves are doing worse than he did. {HR December 1, 1872, par. 8}

It IS possible to stop sinning. I love everyone in Christ and I do not wish to argue for arguments sake but for righteousness sake. Peace.



I will clarify my view point, it is not that I disagree with any bible quotes regarding sanctification, holiness, do not sin, etc, but i think this is not a status which is a prerequisite for a justification to enter heaven and eternal life. If any one can achieve a status where he/she doesn't sin any longer and perfect in their character without blemish, without stain whatsoever, praise God, but if not, it doesn't unqualified him/her for heaven.

Tell me, how do you stop sinning and attain a perfect sinless character. What is the formula? Does your will involve or not? Do you deny self (the lust of the flesh) or not? Although your victory over the flesh is the work of the Spirit, but it is also because you align your will with what the Spirit desire, and you disciplined your flesh to a standard as according to the Scripture.

So, if justification to enter heaven and live eternally is a reward for you 'cause you passed the judgment based on a life status that you had reach (sinless perfect character) which is a prerequisite, then I think, you might boast for your works, for you have a share in this work in saving yourself.

But the Scripture said, eternal life is a gift, justification is a gift. What else do we need? Faith alone.

Christ imputed righteousness is what Christ did for you, a gift. But Christ imparted righteousness, is what you did through the power of the Spirit, and if this become a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, then it is a cooperation work of your will and the Spirit, it is no longer a gift but a reward indeed, a reward for your works, even how small your share is, but you did work.

You must have a good source of Scripture quotes to prove it, because it denies the first. If using sister EGW quotes, who can accept that except SDA's?

Enoch and Elijah was an example of end time condition:
Rev. 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Why should we worry about that?
All believers who lived by faith, will be justified by faith, just then they will continue living righteously without sinning, because God had closed the door of probation, how can they sin? Satan has no power to temp and the flesh lost it power also, but does they have a perfect body, do they still need a transformation at Christ 2nd coming? The Scripture said yes.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144464
08/09/12 12:15 AM
08/09/12 12:15 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Christ imputed righteousness is what Christ did for you, a gift. But Christ imparted righteousness, is what you did through the power of the Spirit, and if this become a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, then it is a cooperation work of your will and the Spirit, it is no longer a gift but a reward indeed, a reward for your works, even how small your share is, but you did work.

James, this is simple, and I don't know why you are complicating it. Justification is our title to heaven, and justification is by faith. If, however, faith is not followed by good works, it is false, and not true. So, without good works nobody will enter heaven - not because of the good works in themselves, but because the lack of good works shows that you did not have a genuine faith in the first place.
The thief on the cross sure had the good works as proof of his faith. He certainly had the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144475
08/09/12 04:24 AM
08/09/12 04:24 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Please take a good look at this verse Brother. You need to get intimate with this verse. You WILL be tested on this later.

Does it say we will keep sinning in this life if we are in Christ? The moment Adam sinned he lost everything. What little value we place on the life of Christ when we say sin is insignificant.

When we are IN CHRIST we do not sin, but the moment we take our eyes off Christ we are already preparing the way to sin. When we sin, we lose the covering of Christs righteousness and need to repent, then we are led to see the result to strengthen our hatred of sin. But is it guaranteed for us to get back to that perfect state of forgiveness? God will never forsake us, but when we justify sin we forsake Him. How many never desire to come back from falls but become content with living in the Grey area between grace and hell?

Remember your first love, your first moments with Jesus.

God uses our falls to teach us about His love, but He does not condone justifying sin, it makes us vulnerable to being assailed by Satan. But more significantly, God is connected to our hearts when we confess the name of His Son, we are then written in the book of Life. Every time we sin it hurts Jesus because in real time, He is in heaven and in your heart simultaneously and we push Him out to get our way, and this angers the Father. We are His people and are supposed to be reflecting His image to the world, but if we stay in the wounded condition we subject ourselves to, we never reach our full potential. The power is right there waiting for us to get us above all of that. Remember your FIRST MOMENTS IN CHRIST and trust in Him from now on and you will not sin.

Think about this the next time you sin, "I just cut myself off from the Creators Spirit and hurt His heart". He is still there for you, but you just did something more damaging than Adam eating the forbidden fruit. Before the fall Adam had not seen Jesus suffer and die. In our hearts, we have.

So what excuse do we have to present to the Father that we chose to continue doing things that would put His Son to death again?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144476
08/09/12 04:39 AM
08/09/12 04:39 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
And to answer questions that always arise in this conversation.

When I am at peace in the Spirit of God He is perfect in me. When I am not at peace, I place myself on Satan's ground, outside the camp.

But our Lord has shown us the path of redemption. First we MUST repent, then accept the power of forgiveness and receive our first love back. When we are there Satan cannot touch us. This is perfection in the faith Of Christ.

When the Lord led me to Him through His word, teaching me about the Sabbath before I had even heard about the SDA church, THAT DAY, I was perfectly forgiven by God and I received the gift of grace with pure joy and His Holiness.

I literally was fighting with the Holy Spirit in my heart to commit sin the couple of days later when the first temptation showed up naked at my front door. Do you know what I mean? This is when we lose it. But we must get back to that sweet savor of forgiveness. Walk in that power and He will NEVER leave you. Say it doesn't matter and you prove you are not there.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Rosangela] #144542
08/12/12 10:05 AM
08/12/12 10:05 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Christ imputed righteousness is what Christ did for you, a gift. But Christ imparted righteousness, is what you did through the power of the Spirit, and if this become a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, then it is a cooperation work of your will and the Spirit, it is no longer a gift but a reward indeed, a reward for your works, even how small your share is, but you did work.

James, this is simple, and I don't know why you are complicating it. Justification is our title to heaven, and justification is by faith. If, however, faith is not followed by good works, it is false, and not true. So, without good works nobody will enter heaven - not because of the good works in themselves, but because the lack of good works shows that you did not have a genuine faith in the first place.
The thief on the cross sure had the good works as proof of his faith. He certainly had the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.


I think, you are justifying yourself.

Do you believe the thief on the cross has the fruit of the Spirit?

This idea has no basic and is not logic. He has nothing except faith in Christ. He knew nothing about Christ, just believe at the last moment. But because of his faith he is justified for heaven.

Good works is fruit of the Spirit, but is doesn't add anything to Christ finished work, and if sinless perfect character is fruit of the Spirit, it doesn't become also a prerequisite for heaven.

Justification to eternal life is a gift, that is what the Bible said, and a gift is not a reward, otherwise gift is not a gift. A reward may have some requirements as a prerequisite to receive it. But a gift needs acceptance, which is by faith, which is also a gift.

Al men is justified for heaven, for there is no other righteousness that qualify a sinner for heaven except Christ righteousness, therefore it is a gift, made effective through faith.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144543
08/12/12 10:21 AM
08/12/12 10:21 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Please take a good look at this verse Brother. You need to get intimate with this verse. You WILL be tested on this later.

Does it say we will keep sinning in this life if we are in Christ? The moment Adam sinned he lost everything. What little value we place on the life of Christ when we say sin is insignificant.

When we are IN CHRIST we do not sin, but the moment we take our eyes off Christ we are already preparing the way to sin. When we sin, we lose the covering of Christs righteousness and need to repent, then we are led to see the result to strengthen our hatred of sin. But is it guaranteed for us to get back to that perfect state of forgiveness? God will never forsake us, but when we justify sin we forsake Him. How many never desire to come back from falls but become content with living in the Grey area between grace and hell?

Remember your first love, your first moments with Jesus.

God uses our falls to teach us about His love, but He does not condone justifying sin, it makes us vulnerable to being assailed by Satan. But more significantly, God is connected to our hearts when we confess the name of His Son, we are then written in the book of Life. Every time we sin it hurts Jesus because in real time, He is in heaven and in your heart simultaneously and we push Him out to get our way, and this angers the Father. We are His people and are supposed to be reflecting His image to the world, but if we stay in the wounded condition we subject ourselves to, we never reach our full potential. The power is right there waiting for us to get us above all of that. Remember your FIRST MOMENTS IN CHRIST and trust in Him from now on and you will not sin.

Think about this the next time you sin, "I just cut myself off from the Creators Spirit and hurt His heart". He is still there for you, but you just did something more damaging than Adam eating the forbidden fruit. Before the fall Adam had not seen Jesus suffer and die. In our hearts, we have.

So what excuse do we have to present to the Father that we chose to continue doing things that would put His Son to death again?


When we take our eyes off Christ and sinned, does we also the same time expel him out from our heart?

He said He will come into our heart and sit and eat with us, only when we expel Him out of our hearts He has no choice but to leave us, although He said he will never leave us, this mean His Spirit is still in us and work in us to bring us back to repentance.

So, sinning doesn't make you lost the GIFT from God, only when you lost your faith completely and ignore the GIFT, you will lost your eternal life.

And if we sin, there is always forgiveness abundantly, if you confess your sin and repent.

Therefore, Christ imputed righteousness fit exactly in our situation and condition, a sinner that can just do sin. And there is nothing we could offer to God, except our sins and our faith in Christ.

Not for nothing is said "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" and "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

So, forget about a perfect sinless character as a prerequisite to enter heaven for eternal life, it is not supported by the bible.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144549
08/12/12 03:36 PM
08/12/12 03:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
1. Do you believe the thief on the cross has the fruit of the Spirit?

2. This idea has no basic and is not logic. He has nothing except faith in Christ. He knew nothing about Christ, just believe at the last moment. But because of his faith he is justified for heaven.

3. Good works is fruit of the Spirit, but is doesn't add anything to Christ finished work, and if sinless perfect character is fruit of the Spirit, it doesn't become also a prerequisite for heaven.

1. Yes. Saving "faith" is a fruit of the Spirit.
2. He nearly believed in Jesus early on but Barabbas misled him. See DA.
3. Yes, the fruit of the Spirit does not add to Jesus' salvation work. But to say it isn't a "prerequisite for heaven" is like saying being a mango isn't a prerequisite for fruit.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Mountain Man] #144558
08/13/12 01:02 AM
08/13/12 01:02 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Do you believe the thief on the cross has the fruit of the Spirit?

By all means!

Quote:
This idea has no basic and is not logic. He has nothing except faith in Christ. He knew nothing about Christ, just believe at the last moment. But because of his faith he is justified for heaven.

The fruit "faithfulness" is the same as "faith," so as Mike said above, he had the fruit of the Spirit. The moment I was justified all the fruit of the Spirit sprang in my heart. Love - Don't you think He loved Christ? Joy - Don't you think he had joy? Peace - Don't you think he felt in peace? The fruit are evidences that you've been saved. If you don't possess them, you haven't been saved.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Rosangela] #144559
08/13/12 01:03 AM
08/13/12 01:03 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Mike, good points. Thank you.

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