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Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Rosangela] #144567
08/13/12 04:09 PM
08/13/12 04:09 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
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Brother James,

Think about this would you, and I repeat seriously, think about this...

When Jesus addressed the words Peter spoke as SATAN, was Jesus still in His heart?

Is there room for both Jesus and the Devil in our hearts?

There is a reason that the word calls it POSSESSION!

It was in denying the words of God that allowed Satan to come between him and his master. Faith is accepting and depending on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. So when we lose our faith through denying god's word we become citizens of Hell whether you want to believe it or not.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144568
08/13/12 04:22 PM
08/13/12 04:22 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
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"When Christ revealed to Peter the time of trial and suffering that was just before Him, and Peter replied, “Be it far from Thee, Lord: this shall not be unto Thee” (Matthew 16:22), the Saviour commanded, “Get thee behind me, Satan” (Matthew 16:23). Satan was speaking through Peter, making him act the part of the tempter. Satan’s presence was unsuspected by Peter, but Christ could detect the presence of the deceiver, and in His rebuke to Peter He addressed the real foe. {2SM 353.1}
On one occasion, speaking to the twelve, and referring to Judas, Christ declared, “One of you is a devil” (John 6:70). Often in the days of His earthly ministry the Saviour met His adversary in human form, when Satan as an unclean spirit took possession of men. Satan takes possession of the minds of men today. In my labors in the cause of God, I have again and again met those who have been thus possessed, and in the name of the Lord I have rebuked the evil spirit. {2SM 353.2}
It is not by force that Satan takes possession of the human mind. While men sleep, the enemy sows tares in the church. While men are spiritually sleeping, the enemy accomplishes his work of iniquity. It is when his subject “understandeth it not” (Matthew 13:19) that he catcheth away the good seed sown in the heart. When men and women are in this condition, when their spiritual life is not being constantly fed by the Spirit of God, Satan can imbue them with his spirit, and lead them to work his works {2SM 353.3}
I entreat that there may be a putting away from the life every action which does not bear the approval of God. We are drawing near to the close of earth’s history; the battle is growing daily more fierce.—Letter 244, 1907. {2SM 353.4}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144599
08/16/12 04:48 AM
08/16/12 04:48 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Brother James,

Think about this would you, and I repeat seriously, think about this...

When Jesus addressed the words Peter spoke as SATAN, was Jesus still in His heart?

Is there room for both Jesus and the Devil in our hearts?

There is a reason that the word calls it POSSESSION!

It was in denying the words of God that allowed Satan to come between him and his master. Faith is accepting and depending on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. So when we lose our faith through denying god's word we become citizens of Hell whether you want to believe it or not.


There is always a battle within us, between the Spirit and the flesh (I), which is from Satan.

Do you believe sinners, the bad one has been forgotten by God? Do you believe there is no Spirit whatsoever working in a sinner, a murderer, the bad one? You are dead wrong!

Christ came to save sinners! He will never leave our hearts who believe in Him no matter how deep we fell in the web of sin.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Rosangela] #144600
08/16/12 04:56 AM
08/16/12 04:56 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Do you believe the thief on the cross has the fruit of the Spirit?

By all means!

Quote:
This idea has no basic and is not logic. He has nothing except faith in Christ. He knew nothing about Christ, just believe at the last moment. But because of his faith he is justified for heaven.

The fruit "faithfulness" is the same as "faith," so as Mike said above, he had the fruit of the Spirit. The moment I was justified all the fruit of the Spirit sprang in my heart. Love - Don't you think He loved Christ? Joy - Don't you think he had joy? Peace - Don't you think he felt in peace? The fruit are evidences that you've been saved. If you don't possess them, you haven't been saved.


I'm sorry, I don't see what you say is in the thief heart.

When he asked Christ for not to forget him, Jesus answer was a promise. Did he believe Christ is the Son of God? His Redeemer? While Christ can't save himself.

If he was drawn to Christ by the Spirit, all what he has is HOPE.

How can he have joy? Love? Kindness? Forbearance? Etc.

All what he has is HOPE and a little faith, but enough to save him.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Mountain Man] #144601
08/16/12 05:05 AM
08/16/12 05:05 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
1. Do you believe the thief on the cross has the fruit of the Spirit?

2. This idea has no basic and is not logic. He has nothing except faith in Christ. He knew nothing about Christ, just believe at the last moment. But because of his faith he is justified for heaven.

3. Good works is fruit of the Spirit, but is doesn't add anything to Christ finished work, and if sinless perfect character is fruit of the Spirit, it doesn't become also a prerequisite for heaven.

1. Yes. Saving "faith" is a fruit of the Spirit.
2. He nearly believed in Jesus early on but Barabbas misled him. See DA.
3. Yes, the fruit of the Spirit does not add to Jesus' salvation work. But to say it isn't a "prerequisite for heaven" is like saying being a mango isn't a prerequisite for fruit.


Yes, faith he has, but to say he has ALL fruit of the Spirit, I don't believe that, because there is no basic for thinking this.

So, for you is: Faith + Works to be saved?

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144605
08/16/12 09:13 AM
08/16/12 09:13 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Yes, faith he has, but to say he has ALL fruit of the Spirit, I don't believe that, because there is no basic for thinking this.

So you are saying that after Jesus enters into our hearts, and we stand justified in the name of the Father, there is more perfection that comes? You are completely wrong about this.

When the Roman Centurion sent for Peter to baptize him and his household they already had the fruits of the Spirit. It was this point that caused Peter to later realize that he was wrong to believe that the Jews had more to offer than the gentiles in Christ. (see next entry, below)

Sanctification is learning how to WALK in forgiveness, not to continually go back to sinning.

The Justified ex-thief was tested after that moment before he died, but he remained in faith. It is all about remaining in the faith of Jesus and not being lured into sin or disbelief.

We have no good thing within ourselves, when Jesus enters, at that moment we are perfect in the eyes of God. We need to be continually cleansed every time we sin, this is sanctification. It is better that we do not sin.

In other words learning to not sin is sanctification which happens simultaneously with Justification but we must remain in faith and not sin, if we continue to sin we must be cleansed again and this process is sanctification or being set apart from sin. The spirit of prophecy says we do not have to go through a continual process of sanctification if we remain and do not sin. BUT if we do sin we have an advocate.

So were in all of this would the fruits come? Do not confuse the fruits with the gifts. Fruits are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. This is the heart of Jesus that leads us to repent. The thief had ALL OF THESE at that moment, just like every person who has EVER been converted.

The gifts are; healing, prophecies etc... God can see our hearts, and He knows how well we will remain, if we do not have the full conviction then He will not entrust great gifts to us until we are fully sanctified. This process is confused by many like you brother James to believe that men like the converted thief would not have the fruits, but Jesus said he did, or he would not have exclaimed that he would be with Him in paradise.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144606
08/16/12 09:27 AM
08/16/12 09:27 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
From the Jerusalem council, held because some Jews were insisting the gentiles be circumcised and keep the mosaic law...

Acts 15
5 ... some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144654
08/18/12 06:22 AM
08/18/12 06:22 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Yes, faith he has, but to say he has ALL fruit of the Spirit, I don't believe that, because there is no basic for thinking this.

So you are saying that after Jesus enters into our hearts, and we stand justified in the name of the Father, there is more perfection that comes? You are completely wrong about this.



What did the bible said:
2 Peter 1:
4 Thereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And besides this, using all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge,
6 and to knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness,
7 and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Perfection is still to come.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144655
08/18/12 06:26 AM
08/18/12 06:26 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
so, the thief on the cross has nothing else except his sins, deadly sins and a little faith.

For that he was justified, and if he is permitted to live longer, he will learn to live by faith, and there are a lot to be add to his new character, many things.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144656
08/18/12 06:34 AM
08/18/12 06:34 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
To live with faith is to live without covetous desires, and if without this, what desires is in you? Only one, the desire of the Spirit, and what is that? Life and peace (Romans 8:6).

Thus, where is that holiness as a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally? Where is that sinless perfect character as a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally?

You reach this state because of faith alone, and faith is a gift, so everything is a gift, including justification to enter heaven and live eternally.

But shifting the focus from Christ (faith) to self (perfect sinless state as a target), is adding works to faith, even the works of the Spirit, and this is against bible teaching, for it changes what is a gift to become a reward.

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