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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14513
08/11/05 09:42 PM
08/11/05 09:42 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Southwest USA
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quote:
Romans
10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
1 John
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
Do these passages shed any light on the subject?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14514
08/12/05 04:00 AM
08/12/05 04:00 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Yes they do. How about this one? quote:
36 And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat. 37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, 38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. 39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. 40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. 41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? 43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. 44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. 49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.(Luke 7:36-50)
How about the questions I asked? Please answer them.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14515
08/12/05 05:08 PM
08/12/05 05:08 PM
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quote:
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Faith doesn’t save us, Jesus does. It is faith that enables Jesus to save us. That’s what Jesus meant.
quote:
Is taking God at His word all that faith is? Does faith involve appreciation, for example? Or gratitude? Does it involve an admiration of God's character?
For example, a person could hate God, and still take Him at His word. Would such a person be exercising faith? Would this faith be salvific?
Saving faith is taking God at His word. To appreciate God’s character we must believe what we learn about His character in His word. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14516
08/12/05 10:26 PM
08/12/05 10:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Old Tom: And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
MM: Faith doesn’t save us, Jesus does. It is faith that enables Jesus to save us. That’s what Jesus meant.
Tom: The reason I quoted the story was because it was a story which demonstrated what faith is. The woman demonstrated her appreciation of what Christ had done for her by anointing Him with perfume and washing His feet with her tears. Jesus referred to this as "faith". So the faith which Christ referred to as saving her was more than simply taking God at His word, which would be simply believing some fact.
You mentioned that faith enables Jesus to save us. What does this mean? What does Jesus do that saves us? How does faith enable Him to do that?
Old Tom: Is taking God at His word all that faith is? Does faith involve appreciation, for example? Or gratitude? Does it involve an admiration of God's character?
For example, a person could hate God, and still take Him at His word. Would such a person be exercising faith? Would this faith be salvific?
MM: Saving faith is taking God at His word. To appreciate God’s character we must believe what we learn about His character in His word. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Tom: I don't see that your response answered any of my questions. They can be answered "yes" or "no." Feel free to elaborate, but I would still be interested in the yes and no parts. For your convenience, I'll repeat them here:
Is taking God at His word all that faith is? Does faith involve appreciation, for example? Or gratitude? Does it involve an admiration of God's character?
For example, a person could hate God, and still take Him at His word. Would such a person be exercising faith? Would this faith be salvific?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14517
08/13/05 02:41 AM
08/13/05 02:41 AM
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EGW used this phrase hundreds of times to describe real, saving faith: "Faith that works by love."
[edit] This is also good:
"Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith."
{SC 63.2}
[ August 13, 2005, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: John H. ]
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14518
08/13/05 03:30 AM
08/13/05 03:30 AM
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SDA
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quote:
I don't see that your response answered any of my questions.
I'm sorry. I guess I don't know how to answer your question.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14519
08/13/05 04:49 AM
08/13/05 04:49 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
"Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith."
Yes this is good. It brings out that our affections being fixed upon God is an element of faith. It's not simply taking God at His word. Ellen White often referred to it as "heart work".
She also has a statement where she says we may say we believe in Christ when we recognize the cost of our salvation (believing in Christ is synonomous to saying that we have faith in Christ).
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14520
08/13/05 05:00 AM
08/13/05 05:00 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:I don't see that your response answered any of my questions.
MM: I'm sorry. I guess I don't know how to answer your question.
Tom: No need to apologize. I see you are having trouble, so I will help you step by step through each question.
Question No. 1: Is taking God at His word all that faith is?
This question can be answered "yes" or "no". A "yes" answer would mean that faith involves nothing more than taking God at His word. It would not involve other elements, such as appreciating God's character, or feeling of gratitude or thankfulness. A "no" answer would mean there is more involved, such as the things I suggested, or other elements that you might suggest.
Question No. 2(a, b, c):Does faith involve appreciation, for example? Or gratitude? Does it involve an admiration of God's character?
These are addional elements to question 1 which I have suggested. I believe that in addition to taking God at His word, these elements are also, in addition, included as essential elements to faith. Do you agree with me on this? You may answer "yes" if you agree, and "no" if you do not.
Question No. 3(a, b):For example, a person could hate God, and still take Him at His word. Would such a person be exercising faith? Would this faith be salvific?
A person could hate God, such as say one of the pharisees. If a pharisee, specifically one of the ones who conspired to put Christ to death, were to take God at His Word, would he be exerciaing faith? This question can be answered "yes" if you think such an act would be an act of faith, or "no" if you think not. You could elabaorate as you saw fit.
If you respond "no", then there's no need to respond to the follow up question as to whether this faith would be salvific, so you would be saying you don't believe the pharisee was exercizing faith. If you respond "yes", that the pharisee is answering faith, then is this faith salivic? By this I mean, would this faith result in the Pharisee's salvation? This question can be answered "yes" or "no".
Ok, you should be set now! Please answer the questions. The reason I'm asking is to try to ascertain more completely what you conceive faith to be.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14521
08/13/05 08:47 PM
08/13/05 08:47 PM
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SDA
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quote:
I believe that in addition to taking God at His word, these elements are also, in addition, included as essential elements to faith. Do you agree with me on this? You may answer "yes" if you agree, and "no" if you do not.
No. I believe such things are the fruit of faith.
quote:
If a pharisee, specifically one of the ones who conspired to put Christ to death, were to take God at His Word, would he be exerciaing faith?
No. Conspiring to kill Christ is not a fruit of faith. With saving faith it is all or nothing. No man can serve two masters. A tree cannot bear two opposite kinds of fruit.
John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
According to this passage, to believe on Jesus is to behave like Jesus. Faith and works are separate but related elements of salvation.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14522
08/14/05 05:31 AM
08/14/05 05:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thank you MM for answering the questions. You wrote that you believe that appreciation and gratitude are fruits of faith. I believe they are essential elements of faith. That is, one cannot have faith without feeling gratitude. My belief is in harmony with both Scripture (see the story about Mary Magdalene and the feast of Simon which I cited) and the Spirit of Prophesy (who wrote that we may say we believe in Jesus when we appreciate the cost of our salvation.
Regariding the Pharisee question, you wrote that if a Pharisee who was plotting to kill Christ were to take God at His word, that would NOT be faith. So what is faith? You wrote before that faith is taking God at His word, but in the case of the Pharisee you say it isn't. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
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