If I might start another thread to get back on track for the topic that was closed, the issue is Christian perfection.

It is a testimony of the Seventh Day Adventist Church that perfection in Christ is not only possible, it is essential to being prepared for eternity with God for those living in the last days.

"We feel a deep interest for the people of God. We are anxious that they should rightly estimate the important truths for these last days, and have correct views in reference to the characters they must develop in order to obtain the redemption promised the faithful and perfect. We would that all felt a deeper interest in regard to their own salvation and that of their fellow-men. We wish that all would regard the work of repentance, faith, and devotion, as essential to the formation of their religious characters." {RH March 29, 1870, par. 2}

"None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ’s character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}
Before the believer is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ, obedient to all the principles of the law. But of himself man is utterly unable to reach this condition. The holiness that God’s word declares he must have before he can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. Man’s obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ’s righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray [Faith] to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sin-sick soul. He has not the wisdom or the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and He bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek Him for help. {AA 532.1}

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Here it is, the command from Christ to be perfect, not only like Jesus, but to be as perfect as His Father (Jesus as a man was "perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil" the Spirit of Prophecy says above)

The question is, how is perfection attained?

"The Scripture declares, “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” The knowledge of what the Scripture means when urging upon us the necessity of cultivating faith, is more essential than any other knowledge that can be acquired. We suffer much trouble and grief because of our unbelief, and our ignorance of how to exercise faith. We must break through the clouds of unbelief. We can not have a healthy Christian experience, we can not obey the gospel unto salvation, until the science of faith is better understood, and until more faith is exercised. There can be no perfection of Christian character without that faith that works by love, and purifies the soul." {RH October 18, 1898, par. 7}

Faith is the expecting the word of God to do what it says and the depending upon that word to do what it says. As that is faith and as faith comes by the word of God, it is plain that the word of God, in order to inculcate faith, must teach that the word has in itself power to accomplish what itself says. And such is precisely the truth of the matter: the word of God does teach just this and nothing else, so that it is truly "the faithful word"--the word full of faith.

So if acquiring faith is "more essential than any other knowledge that can be acquired", and "Faith is the expecting the word of God to do what it says and the depending upon that word to do what it says," then would you not expect for the words of Jesus to be perfectly fulfilled in His power when He says "be ye therefore perfect"?

His words are fulfilled for us individually just as powerfully as for creation. If you believe and rely upon the words of God, miracles can happen. Our sinful minds can be converted in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. It is a lack of faith that prolongs the event, not a lack on God's part for the word to complete what it says. But since He is the author and finisher of our faith, He ever contends with our faults, until He can accomplish His goal of perfection in us, and to strengthen us day by day to walk in His faith without falling.

The people who learn to deeply repent, casting there sins upon the head of Jesus, learn to trust and rely upon God's promises. Miraculous answers to prayer are the norm and not the exception when we attain this level of faith in the word of God.

It is when men design their own faith that faith does not work.

If you let the word of God speak for Himself, then everything, all of the promises can be yours right now. Just like the family of Cornelius, the Roman Centurion, who were baptized with the Holy Spirit before baptism in water, because of their belief in the word of God being fulfilled in Christ, that faith Jesus Himself declared was GREAT FAITH, greater than all of Israel.

"Man’s obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ’s righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience", does this say it takes seventy years to accomplish? Can Jesus administer His righteousness in our behalf right now? ONLY IF WE HAVE FAITH! That is why without faith we cannot please God.

It does not take a lifetime to achieve this! Those who teach otherwise are who lack faith and are slow of heart.

People who experience rebirth in accordance with the biblical description are born again "dead to sin," "free from sin," and "awake to righteousness". They have "tasted that the Lord is gracious" and have laid "aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings". While they are consciously choosing to abide in Jesus, they are "perfecting holiness," growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. They have "ceased from sin" and "no longer" "live the rest" of their "time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

Unfortunately, most people do not experience biblical rebirth. True, genuine, thorough, biblical rebirth is rare. "Religious faith and principles have become deteriorated, mingled with worldly customs and practices, and for this reason pure and undefiled religion is rare." {PH167 26.1} "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ." {12MR 51.1}

That's exactly right Brother.

And there are so many variables in the mix in why men are not prepared as they should be to receive the promises when they are baptized. Satan has so infiltrated our churches that it is actually a hindrance to rebirth some times.

I can give examples from my own experience.

I have already shared with many here that God led me to the Sabbath first through being led to repent, fast, and pray for seven days while reading the bible, and on the seventh day of the fast I came to the book of Matthew and read "the son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath day" and I heard the still small voice say "this will lead you home to me". Then a light encompassed the word 'Sabbath' and filled my mind. The light connected neural pathways between all of the points of truth in my mind. At that moment I could ask anything and I would receive it.

Well at the same time that was happening for me, across town 55 people were being baptized after a Leo Schreven seminar. I happened to call the only Seventh Day Adventist Church in town that day after the baptisms and the pastor came over, bringing the conference president with him. They heard my testimony yet the president cast me off as if I was not, in his mind, worthy to be a part of their church. 17 years later I found out through one of my local pastors here in Minnesota that that man, Conference president of Alaska at the time, now president of the Texarkana conference, had been spreading lies about me that he heard through his network of gossips, and he told my pastor that I was not to be trusted with young women because I show them pornography to get them to sleep with me. He told this lie to my pastor ten years ago, poisoning his mind against me, when it was not me that president Stephens was talking about, it was someone else with my same last name who is still in prison for that crime. Do you know how damaging that was to me all those years without one person confirming their lies? They didn't bother to confirm it with me, they just kept spreading the lie behind my back even to other parts of the world! Imagine what that would have done to someone of lesser faith!

This same thing has happened so many times to me, and it is very discouraging. Mortal men with imperfectly developed faiths are in charge of the corporate church and they make things hard for God by their lack of faith.

Try telling people that God led you to their church, and see what kind of response you get. I was raised Catholic and had to deal with unlearning all of that with the aid of the Holy Spirit, through reading scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy, which spoke as deeply to me as the Sabbath. NO MAN TAUGHT ME ANY OF IT! In fact, I would receive a vision or a dream, and the next chapter I was about to read in the Spirit of Prophecy, which I had never read before, would be dealing with the exact issue as my dream, letting me know that GOD was teaching me and showing me how relevant this was to my Spiritual development.

One time while in Anchorage Alaska as a member of the Northside church, I was impressed by the Holy Spirit to offer making the juice for communion. But instead of following their traditional way of buying a certain kind of frozen concentrated juice, I bought a whole flat of Blood Grapes from Jerusalem and juiced them myself.

After cleaning and preparing, then juicing the grapes, the juice looked just like blood, and the mist of the juice filled the whole room with this wonderful scent and pinkish/purple hued light, and the Holy Spirit sang to me, so I started singing. Even my pagan room mates said they thought something magical just happened.

When I brought that juice to church, the division among the congregation was immediate. One side of the room was scoffing and scolding me, while the other side with fewer people were praising God for the wonderful blessing. They didn't get just a sip of yuck juice, they got a whole glass of amazing juice.

I had an epiphany during that service, and while a brother was washing my feet, the Holy Spirit caused me to remember my sins exactly as God sees them, and I made a public confession with mournful tears and true repentance. The head elder took me aside and scolded me for sharing the pain of my past sins in public as if I was committing a sin. The next Sabbath a teenager stole my tithe envelope with cash in it, and when I asked the kid who obviously took it, where it was, his Samoan Aunt came at me like a demon and scratched my face deeply with her fingernails, and they had to drag her off me while she threatened my life. This is Satan trying to discourage the elect within the congregation.

I could list dozens of situations like this.

But none are as prominent as when I have a vision or a dream that perfectly explains elements of faith, and then try to share it with the church. I get the strangest looks, and very very few will even take the time to read and test the vision.

These people act as if we are not to receive any instruction from God, like He gave us the bible and left us alone to figure it out through the Spirit of Prophecy, and most even argue against that!

Well my God shares truth with me. And He gives me tokens of His love by letting me know when I am forgiven and when I should repent. When His tokens of forgiveness are with me, I receive visions and dreams. When I should repent, He is not subtle about it, He makes it known as if I better get it done NOW so the devil cannot destroy me in sin.

This is my God, who has taken away my sin and filled the void with His love. He is not mute, He can speak and He is not deaf, He can hear.

By the way, none of those so called 'brothers' have ever come to me to apologize. This is why the subject is still unaccounted for. They better get right with God in their hearts or discontinue claiming the name of the Lord, because He does not take kindly to people who claim His name yet do the works of Satan in His church.

The poison that President Stevens spewed against me has haunted my walk in Christ even to this day 17 years later. The man he poisoned against me, my local pastor in Minnesota at the time, Jerry Holt, who sold our paid for church and took away the seventh Day Adventist title and brought in a rock band and tried to keep the tithe while putting the church into debt over 2 million dollars, followed his example and never came to me.

It all came to a head when he was baptizing openly homosexual people into our congregation. He used that information against me to discredit me when I stood against his teaching that it was OK to baptize homosexuals. He did not share it with me but with other brothers until he was busted.

I was shocked, because I had no clue what he was talking about, but he asserted the point as if it was the gospel, then he told me about his trip to Seattle where he met President Stephens (the one who came to my home the day I was led to the Sabbath) who told him all those filthy lies against me. Then I realized it must be my brother Dan who is still in prison for something like what they are talking about against me. Why would people who teach the word of God spread that kind of information without attempting to see if it is true? If I was the monster they said I was why would they not contact me to try to help me but instead tell everyone they feel "needs to know" so they can hate me too?

So this lie has followed me since the day I was led to the Sabbath. They did not consider it could be a lie, nor did they consider that it could have been something I did repent of if I had done it. Neither of them were a witness to anything like that in my life, but still considered me a threat to their congregations.

If someone knows Pastor Stevens, they had better warn him. I tried to communicate with him about it but he refuses to return my messages. He has obviously hardened his heart against me, and this is the PRESIDENT of the largest conference of SDA churches in America!

This is why we as a corporate church are not being blessed as we should be, halfhearted men keep electing men like him as president who want to bring in women pastors and change the rules for our church. Like it is their authority to make such claims. He gave that lie to a pastor who was supporting homosexual baptism if that has any indicator of what I have gone through in Christ's name.

So if the present day leaders of our churches are set on doing evil against God in His church, I really fear for the congregation. Because these are the example set before us, how many will rise above that?

Matthew 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Thanks for your prayers.

Brother Mt Man, I didn't see this in what you wrote earlier until just now. Are you saying that when a man is "saved" he cannot be lost?

"Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. [Note from the White Trustees: It is the privilege of the Christian to know that on his acceptance of Christ he is saved from his [past] sins and can rejoice in this salvation. But neither the Scriptures nor the Spirit of Prophecy writings supports the popular teaching: “Once saved, always saved.” A person may be saved today, but failing to keep his eyes on Jesus and to grow daily in Him, may become self-confident and be lost tomorrow. The apostle Paul declared, “I die daily.” In a sense, conversion is a daily experience." {NL 41.1}

We can fall, just like Adam did from perfection.

We are saved from our past sins immediately if we truly accept Christ, and we can claim all of the promises, but we are not free from temptation until Jesus comes back to get us, when we are changed. That is when the Genesis curse for men and women will be fulfilled. Satan's curse is fulfilled after the 1000 years.

The closest thing there has been to perfection in Christ among men was Enoch and Elijah (think of the 144,000 in the Spirit of Elijah). They had received the seal of God and were taken to heaven without seeing death, which shows this level of perfection in faith is possible among men. The fact that Jesus was a man fulfilling perfection is harder to address without confusion, so Enoch and Elijah are representatives of Christ.

The 144,000 will be sealed also, which is a "settling into the truth so they cannot be moved". But they will not know they are sealed, they will keep looking to see if they have any spot or blemish until the cloud comes from heaven. There is no point when we can say we are free from falling, until Jesus comes back.

When Jesus called the Apostles were they sealed? Obviously not, since Judas and Peter fell hard, but after Jesus was resurrected all who remained received the sealing at Pentecost, synonymous with our soon to come 'Later Rain'. So our preparation for the sealing is happening now.

I'm sure Jones and Wagoner were never expected to fall after being called 'God's messengers' from Mrs White.

I'm sure it was a shock to Joshua when he saw Moses fall and strike the rock twice.

But these people all had spoken to God. They had to be clean to hear Him. So they fell from perfection. Do you see?

What you describe as "rebirth" Brother Mt Man, I would call being sealed.

When we are born into the body of Christ, we are immediately given the victory if it is a true conversion. We are given total victory if we accept it. It is a gift. Where we lack in faith, is shown where we fall after that point. The day God brought me to Sabbath He gave me complete victory over sin. I literally had to walk away in order to commit any sin. Some of the things I was given victory over He kept me from even after I had fallen back to other sins. I never drank another drop of alcohol or ate another animal and other things of that nature.

There are those who do not walk away from God and remain and gain strength immediately, others takes many falls. When we fall, if we truly love God we feel the pain of the separation and through the urging of the Holy Spirit we repent and are restored. Moses had talked with God at the burning bush and then fell then was restored. Obviously we can fall then, until being sealed. But you wont know when that is.

Proverbs says "a righteous man falls seven times". Seven means perfection, so this text means, a man falls as many times as necessary till he trusts in Christ and learns not leave the shadow of the Almighty, where the model for the perfect character resides, the only place to find perfection.

Do you know that Judas did miracles while he walked with God through Christ? Then he fell.

I do not believe that's what Peter meant. See 1 Peter 4:1-2. I believe the inspired promises and descriptions of believers applies while they are consciously choosing to abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature. If they neglect or refuse to do so they thereby resurrect the mind of the old man and resume where they left off sinning. They must receive the gift of repentance and confess their sins so that Jesus can pardon them and restore them to the mind of the new man. Then they can resume where they left off abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, perfecting holiness. If they reject the gift of repentance they are in a lost state. There is hope for them until the day they die or Jesus returns. If they continue to reject the gift of repentance until the day they die or Jesus returns they thereby forfeit eternal life. They will perish with the unsaved in the lake of fire. God forbid! Let us work to seek and save the lost. Thank you, Jesus!

Very well put. Spoken like a man who has seen it in his own life.

God bless you.