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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Johann] #163632
03/23/14 12:27 AM
03/23/14 12:27 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.


Or governed by a strict order by the King, like in the KJV, to be certain the new Bible is fully in accordance with the doctrines established by papacy and inherited by the Church of England. . . and followed with waggling tails by all of those who believe this to be the only possible truth.

Actually the translators of KJV also followed how this and several other words had already been translated earlier with the approval of the establishment. This is by many regarded as the only true conservatism, conserved by tradition.


Well, the NKJV was not governed by a king and neither are greek and hebrew lexicons. So, the Bible is not polluted by culture, kings or tradition over the ages. The RCC believes that. It is true languages change over time and having the greek and hebrew languages available addresses that problem so we can trust the sure Word of God.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #163638
03/23/14 05:29 AM
03/23/14 05:29 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Well, the NKJV was not governed by a king and neither are greek and hebrew lexicons. So, the Bible is not polluted by culture, kings or tradition over the ages. The RCC believes that. It is true languages change over time and having the greek and hebrew languages available addresses that problem so we can trust the sure Word of God.

The Bible isn't polluted by culture, but peoples interpretations are polluted by culture or lack of understanding culture. And those interpretations have crept into scripture and the understanding thereof.

I fully agree we have the Greek and we need to look for the true meaning there when issues arise.

It's amazing what I've found lately.

If people would just take the time to study what Paul wrote, they will find out that they are using Paul's words to defend what Paul opposed.

Since digging under all the traditions heaped upon women and attributed to Paul, I have found truths hidden in Paul's writings about women that are quite different from the usual presentations, and very much in line with ideal relationships in family and church, that fit with his other writings.



Probably if his true meaning had been known and followed throughout Christian history we wouldn't have the radical women's movements (it won't be needed) and we would have men understanding true qualities of manhood, instead of the conquer or be conquered mentality.

It's just too bad that these revelations of what Paul was really saying are coming out when two camps are at war -- and scriptural wars always end up with people going off on opposite poles and shooting each other down without listening to what they are actually saying.


Yes, to understand anything written, one must have some knowledge as to WHY it was written, in order to get the true meaning of WHAT was written. And to learn, one has to understand something about the prevalent customs and conditions that existed at the time of writing.


There is nothing new in this method of interpretation.
Adventists have used it since the beginning.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #163639
03/23/14 06:31 AM
03/23/14 06:31 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy


Paul has been quoted as calling for Deacons and Elders to be a man of one wife, etc... So, Paul was aware that women should never be considered a Priest. Consequently, not a preacher of the Gospel. 1 Cor. 9:13-14.

Again this is my main concern -- why do people think men are called or ordained to be "priests" in the Christian church.

Christ is our Priest -- no man or woman is called to be a priest in the church.

We don't need any human intercessor to come before the throne of grace, for we are all given that priestly privilege of approaching God through Jesus Christ.

To take Paul's counsel in 1 Cor. 9:13-14 that just like those working in a temple received pay, so now preachers should receive some pay, DOES NOT MAKE THEM PRIESTS or transfer any priestly rites upon them.

EGW writes quite a bit that women who devote time working for the Lord, should be paid for their work just like men, but that doesn't make the priest either.



A deacon or elder is NOT a priest.

The word of "deacons" is "diakonos"
Paul uses that word 22 times.

In the KJV Paul's use of the word is translated as
"deacon" 3X
"minister(s)" 18x
And "servant" 1x

And guess where it is translated as "servant".
Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant G1249 of the church which is at Cenchrea:

The whole structure of that verse follows the same pattern as other verses where it is translated as deacon or minister which shows the translation should be "deacon" here as well, not "servant" of the church. But the hierarchical mindset of the translators just could not bring themselves to grant her that word.

A minister or deacon (diakonos) is NOT a priest.
They are "servant leaders" IN the churches.

An "elder" simply means an older person.
In the OT and in the Jewish system, the "elders" were regarded for their greater experience and wisdom and they would often sit in the city gates giving counsel and helping to solve problems people would bring to them -- etc.

Paul asks Timothy to ordain elders -- probably as deacons or bishops.

The Greek word is "presbyteros" = elder
Paul also used the word to describe "elder women" in 1 Tim. 2:5


The word "bishop" episkoposis used four times --
Bishop is more of an "overseer".



Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163712
03/26/14 03:04 AM
03/26/14 03:04 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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The NUMBER!!!!

1 Timothy 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man. 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

You think having damnation is a good thing? Hey let's have some damnation! They were not to be accounted among the NUMBER because they would go find a husband and then there would be TWO HEADS in the family.

It's all in the number.

Numbers 1:22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war.

Who was numbered in scripture?

Only the head of the household was ever numbered. When Jesus gave the sermon on the mount the MEN were numbered.

Matthew 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Only the head of the household was numbered. So a sixty year old widow who's children were grown and gone, and who was dedicated to serving the Lord, could be counted among the number because they were beyond the age of having children or wanting to be married again. That is why the younger widow was never to be brought into the NUMBER.

"He who is engaged in the work of the gospel ministry must be faithful in his family life. It is as essential that as a father he should improve the talents God has given him for the purpose of making the home a symbol of the heavenly family, as that in the work of the ministry, he should make use of his God-given powers to win souls for the church. As the priest in the home, and as the ambassador of Christ in the church, he should exemplify in his life the character of Christ. He must be faithful in watching for souls as one that must give an account. In his service there must be seen no carelessness and inattentive work. God will not serve with the sins of men who have not a clear sense of the sacred responsibility involved in accepting a position as pastor of a church. He who fails to be a faithful, discerning shepherd in the home, will surely fail of being a faithful shepherd of the flock of God in the church.—Manuscript Releases 6:49. {PaM 88.3}

Woa to anyone who tries to change this!

"The great Head of the church has given talents to the company of believers. He has given his Word to mold the character, and his Spirit to bring all things to their remembrance. He desires his people to bring into their work the true principles of missionary effort. Many of the Lord’s servants are numbered with those of whom John wrote, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” Those who are left to plant the standard in new places are to have a keen, sanctified interest in every plan which is related, directly or indirectly, to the great work of warning the world. Those who have stood in positions of trust, faithful men who have been led and guided by God, are to thank him for his molding, fashioning power. They are to carry his work onward and upward to perfect accomplishment. They are to move with careful, prayerful consideration, lest they mar the influence of the work by changing the order which the Lord has said should be followed. As they advance, step by step, they are to mind the same things, to advance in the same lines, that the truth may never be dishonored or lose its sacred, holy influence in the sight of the world. {GCB July 1, 1900, Art. B, par. 21}

This is what being a part of the REMNANT is!


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: jamesonofthunder] #163716
03/26/14 02:36 PM
03/26/14 02:36 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
The NUMBER!!!!

1 Timothy 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man. 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

You think having damnation is a good thing? Hey let's have some damnation! They were not to be accounted among the NUMBER because they would go find a husband and then there would be TWO HEADS in the family.

It's all in the number.

Numbers 1:22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war.

Who was numbered in scripture?

Only the head of the household was ever numbered. When Jesus gave the sermon on the mount the MEN were numbered.

Matthew 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Only the head of the household was numbered. So a sixty year old widow who's children were grown and gone, and who was dedicated to serving the Lord, could be counted among the number because they were beyond the age of having children or wanting to be married again. That is why the younger widow was never to be brought into the NUMBER.

"He who is engaged in the work of the gospel ministry must be faithful in his family life. It is as essential that as a father he should improve the talents God has given him for the purpose of making the home a symbol of the heavenly family, as that in the work of the ministry, he should make use of his God-given powers to win souls for the church. As the priest in the home, and as the ambassador of Christ in the church, he should exemplify in his life the character of Christ. He must be faithful in watching for souls as one that must give an account. In his service there must be seen no carelessness and inattentive work. God will not serve with the sins of men who have not a clear sense of the sacred responsibility involved in accepting a position as pastor of a church. He who fails to be a faithful, discerning shepherd in the home, will surely fail of being a faithful shepherd of the flock of God in the church.—Manuscript Releases 6:49. {PaM 88.3}

Woa to anyone who tries to change this!

"The great Head of the church has given talents to the company of believers. He has given his Word to mold the character, and his Spirit to bring all things to their remembrance. He desires his people to bring into their work the true principles of missionary effort. Many of the Lord’s servants are numbered with those of whom John wrote, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” Those who are left to plant the standard in new places are to have a keen, sanctified interest in every plan which is related, directly or indirectly, to the great work of warning the world. Those who have stood in positions of trust, faithful men who have been led and guided by God, are to thank him for his molding, fashioning power. They are to carry his work onward and upward to perfect accomplishment. They are to move with careful, prayerful consideration, lest they mar the influence of the work by changing the order which the Lord has said should be followed. As they advance, step by step, they are to mind the same things, to advance in the same lines, that the truth may never be dishonored or lose its sacred, holy influence in the sight of the world. {GCB July 1, 1900, Art. B, par. 21}

This is what being a part of the REMNANT is!

Let's not twist the scriptures (the Holy Bible). God said, and I quote, "on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy." (Acts 2:18)

If then God declares that in the Kingdom, there is neither male nor female but all are one in Him, who are you to change His commandment and seek to teach men so? Repent, for I perceive that your heart is not right with God. Is it not written as well that theere is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Kingdom? And in this you rejoice for God has made you a priest among His people, you who were once cut off from the commonwealth of Israel and could not approach to serve in the Temple.

Do not seek now to suppress the people of God, lest he come against you in fiery judgment.

///

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163720
03/26/14 03:22 PM
03/26/14 03:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Jesus is the Head of the Church. The rest of us are mere members. Jesus gifts us according to the needs of the Church. He raises up men, women, and children to lead and serve the Church. Whether or not we choose to lay hands on them is of little consequence. It doesn't change the fact Jesus Himself appointed them to serve.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163727
03/27/14 12:09 AM
03/27/14 12:09 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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***** STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE ALL THE INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT IN THIS POST *****

Last edited by Daryl; 03/27/14 03:04 PM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #163729
03/27/14 02:59 AM
03/27/14 02:59 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Paul's writings are being totally misapplied.

I think we need to study them more carefully.

Consider Aquila and Priscilla. Aquila is NEVER mentioned alone as a worker for God, his wife Priscilla is always mentioned with him. She was a spiritual leader working right beside her husband in both spiritual witnessing and tentmaking.


Quote:
"Soon after his arrival at Corinth, Paul found "a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla." These were "of the same craft" with himself..... In Ephesus, as in Corinth, the apostle was cheered by the presence of Aquila and Priscilla, who had accompanied him on his return to Asia at the close of his second missionary journey. {AA 351.1}

He (Paul) and Aquila and Priscilla had more than one prayer-and-praise meeting with those associated with them in tent-making. 355

Aquila and Priscilla had accompanied him to Ephesus, and he left them there to carry on the work that he had begun.--AA 269

Aquila and Priscilla were not called to give their whole time to the ministry of the gospel, yet these humble laborers were used by God to show Apollos the way of truth more perfectly. AA 355.
While in Ephesus, Apollos "began to speak boldly in the synagogue." Among his hearers were Aquila and Priscilla, who, perceiving that he had not yet received the full light of the gospel, "took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly." Through their teaching he obtained a clearer understanding of the Scriptures, and became one of the ablest advocates of the Christian faith.--The Acts of the Apostles, p. 270

Apollos . . . had received the highest Grecian culture, and was a scholar and an orator . . . . Aquila and Priscilla listened to him, and saw that his teachings were defective. He had not a thorough knowledge of the mission of Christ, His resurrection and ascension, and of the work of His Spirit, the Comforter which He sent down to remain with His people during His absence. They accordingly sent for Apollos, and the educated orator received instruction from them with grateful surprise and joy. Through their teachings he obtained a clearer understanding of the Scriptures, and became one of the ablest defenders of the Christian church. Thus a thorough scholar and brilliant orator learned the way of the Lord more perfectly from the teachings of a Christian man and woman whose humble employment was that of tentmaking (LP 119)

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: dedication] #163731
03/27/14 04:06 AM
03/27/14 04:06 AM
dedication  Online Content
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We need to look at a few words in greater detail.

Ephesians 5

This scripture has been cited time and again as proof that men must rule over women. But is that what Paul is saying?

SUBMIT

5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

The word "submit" appears three times
--submit one to another
--wives submit to own husband
--church submit to Christ

What is the meaning of the original word translated "submit"?
Some say it means "obey".

So does verse 21 tell us to obey one another? If "submit" means "obey" it would have to apply to verse 21 as well.

In the Greek there is a word that means "be in obedient subject to", and that word is "peitharcheo". It contains the root "arch" which carries the meaning of "rule over".

But Paul isn't using that Greek word here, instead he uses "hupotasso" in the imperative form. Thus he is requesting or appealing to wives to voluntarily support their own husbands, to be responsive to their own husbands, to respect their husbands.

He is not commanding husbands to rule over their wives.
His appeal to the husbands is to love their wives.

LOVE

The Greek
has four distinct words for love:
agape -- godly love,
éros -- passionate love
philía, -- friendship, affection
storgē -- tolerant love, or love of parent for child

The English allows "love" to mean any of the above, but the Greek word Paul chose is "agape" -- husbands are to love their wives with a love that's not merely based on emotion or affection, but in a self-sacrificing way.

Actually the two words "hupotasso" and agape both imply giving up one's own interests and caring and serving the other.

So what Paul is saying is that BOTH husbands and wives are give up their own self interests in caring and serving the other.
The wife, with respect for her own husband, and the husband with godly love for his wife.

The RULERSHIP concept is not part of this.


1Pe 5:5

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves G5293 unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject G5293 one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #163751
03/28/14 06:06 AM
03/28/14 06:06 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Last edited by Daryl; 03/28/14 01:22 PM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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