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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #146933
11/13/12 07:03 PM
11/13/12 07:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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True, merely forgiving sinners cannot cause the radical transformation that occurs when people experience rebirth in God's appointed way. Knowing that Jesus loves them and is very willing to pardon and save them certainly serves to motivate them to confess and repent. However, law and justice demand death for sin.

Does confessing and repenting satisfy the demands of law and justice? Is confession and repentance the cause, source of salvation? Is being genuinely sorry sufficient? Or, does law and justice demand being genuinely sorry and never sinning again?

You wrote, "The death of Christ is not for mere forgiveness". Ellen White wrote, "Mere forgiveness of sin is not the sole result of the death of Jesus. He made the infinite sacrifice not only that sin might be removed". In other words, forgiveness and removal of sin is one of the reasons Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death. The question is - Why was it a reason? Why did He have to live and die?

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #146934
11/13/12 08:48 PM
11/13/12 08:48 PM
APL  Offline
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Repentance
Quote:
How shall a man be just with God? How shall the sinner be made righteous? It is only through Christ that we can be brought into harmony with God, with holiness; but how are we to come to Christ? Many are asking the same question as did the multitude on the Day of Pentecost, when, convicted of sin, they cried out, "What shall we do?" The first word of Peter's answer was, "Repent." Acts 2:37, 38. At another time, shortly after, he said, "Repent, . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out." Acts 3:19. {SC 23.1}
Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. We shall not renounce sin unless we see its sinfulness; until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life. {SC 23.2}
There are many who fail to understand the true nature of repentance. Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. But this is not repentance in the Bible sense. They lament the suffering rather than the sin. Such was the grief of Esau when he saw that the birthright was lost to him forever. Balaam, terrified by the angel standing in his pathway with drawn sword, acknowledged his guilt lest he should lose his life; but there was no genuine repentance for sin, no conversion of purpose, no abhorrence of evil. Judas Iscariot, after betraying his Lord, exclaimed, "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood." Matthew 27:4. {SC 23.3}
The confession was forced from his guilty soul by an awful sense of condemnation and a fearful looking for of judgment. ... {SC 24.1}

Confession
Quote:
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. {SC 37.1}
The conditions of obtaining mercy of God are simple and just and reasonable. The Lord does not require us to do some grievous thing in order that we may have the forgiveness of sin. We need not make long and wearisome pilgrimages, or perform painful penances, to commend our souls to the God of heaven or to expiate our transgression; but he that confesseth and forsaketh his sin shall have mercy. {SC 37.2}
The apostle says, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed." James 5:16.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #146939
11/14/12 02:20 AM
11/14/12 02:20 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, is it safe to conclude you believe Jesus did not die to satisfy the demands of law and justice; that confession, repentance, and sinless living is all that is needed to satisfy law and justice? If so, what is the source of our salvation - 1) Jesus' perfect life and death, or 2) confession, repentance, and sinless living?

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #146943
11/14/12 06:21 AM
11/14/12 06:21 AM
APL  Offline
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What does it mean to satisfy the demands of the law? Is this an arbitrary requirement of the law? Once the law is broken, does it mean someone must die? Are all sinners subject to this death? How is it that we can be saved? ...
Quote:
Let us study God's law in connection with the work of Christ. Man broke the law. Christ came to this earth to make an atonement for transgression. His atonement was complete in every part. As He hung on the cross, He could say, "It is finished." The demands of justice were satisfied. The way to the throne of grace was opened for every sinner. {ST, July 31, 1901 par. 8}

The law stands firm, and justice sternly points the sinner to its holy precepts. It is not the province of the law to save the sinner, but to condemn, not to pardon, but to convict. It can not be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. Then how is God's justice to be satisfied and His favor obtained? Not by works; "for by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight." In his own strength the sinner can not meet the demands of God. He must go for help to the One who paid the ransom for him. It is impossible for him of himself to keep the law. But Christ can give him strength to do this. The Saviour came to this world and in human flesh lived a life of perfect obedience, that the sinner might stand before God justified and accepted. {ST, July 31, 1901 par. 9}

Christ is our hope. Those who trust in Him are cleansed. The grace of Christ and the government of God walk together in perfect harmony. When Jesus became man's substitute, mercy and truth met together, and righteousness and peace kissed each other. The cross of Calvary bears witness to the high claims of God's law. Christ did not die to encourage man in rebellion against God, but to provide a way whereby he might keep the whole law. His garment of spotless righteousness clothes the repenting, believing sinner. He is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.
Mrs. E. G. White. {ST, July 31, 1901 par. 10}


Is the "cleansing" a legal process or a healing process?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #146951
11/14/12 04:20 PM
11/14/12 04:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Quote:
Salvation comes through practical godliness and faith in Jesus Christ. {PH002 25.2}

While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. {FW 111.1}

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}

Bad words and works will prevent people from inheriting eternal life. Conversely, good words and works are required to inherit eternal life. They are not the sole source of salvation. The substitutional life and death of Jesus is required to atone for past sins confessed and pardoned. “Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed." “In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man’s sin.” "The transgression of God's law made the death of Christ essential to save man and yet maintain the dignity and honor of the law." "He bore the death penalty of man’s transgression. He became the sinner’s substitute and surety." "Let the punishment fall on Me. I will stand in man's place. He shall have another chance"

You asked, "Is the 'cleansing' a legal process or a healing process?" It is both.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #146953
11/14/12 04:38 PM
11/14/12 04:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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"He died to make an atonement, to redeem, cleanse, restore, and exalt man to a place at his right hand."

Quote:
Christ's death on the cross was one of willing obedience, else in it there would have been no merit; for justice would not punish in the place of the sinner an innocent being who was unwilling to bear the penalty. It was the Saviour's full and free acceptance of the penalty that made His sacrifice wholly acceptable in every point. So the sinner must freely surrender his own will to God, and accept Christ as his substitute and surety. He must rely upon Him as the only one who can change a sinner to a saint. God calls upon us to acknowledge our guilt and accept pardon from Christ, revealing our sincerity by copying His way and doing His will. Of the one who does this the words are spoken, Ye are complete in Him, not having your own righteousness, but the righteousness which is of Christ by faith. {ST, August 22, 1900 par. 8}

Therefore, instead of suffering death himself, he killed a lamb without blemish; the penalty of sin was transferred to the innocent beast, which thus became his immediate substitute, and typified the perfect offering of Jesus Christ. Through the blood of this victim, man looked forward by faith to the blood of Christ which would atone for the sins of the world. {1SM 230.2}

Now if the law of God could have been changed and altered to meet man in his fallen condition, then Adam would have been pardoned and retained his home in Eden; but the penalty of transgression was death, and Christ became man's substitute and surety. Then was the time, could the law of God have been changed, to have made this change and retained Christ in the heavenly courts, that the immense sacrifice made to save a fallen race might have been avoided. But no, the law of God was changeless in its character and therefore Christ gave Himself a sacrifice in behalf of fallen man, and Adam lost Eden and was placed with all his posterity upon probation. {TMK 289.3}

Through the obedience of the Son of God, through his submission to bear the death penalty for human transgression, the law is magnified and made honorable before the universe. Angels, cherubim, seraphim, and worlds unfallen behold the honor of the law vindicated and exalted. Through the unfolding of the perfection of the divine nature they see the image of God restored to man and the honor of the divine government maintained. The wisdom of God has abounded towards all the sons and daughters of Adam. Christ laid down his life, shed his blood, suffered the death penalty for the sinner, and became the Sin Bearer for every repenting, believing soul. We see sin fully punished in the Substitute and the sinner fully saved through his merit. We see the law of God highly exalted, with no jot or tittle of its authority laid aside, while the transgressor, relying upon the merit of the Substitute, is justified by the law. Through the plan of salvation we see mercy and truth met together, righteousness and peace embracing each other. There is no vacillation in the principles of God's commandments, but they are pronounced by the angels of heaven, by the inhabitants of unfallen worlds, and by souls justified, as "holy, and just, and good." {SSW, December 1, 1895 par. 1}

"Sin is the transgression of the law," and "the wages of sin is death." It was sin that brought death into the world. Had there been no sin, there would have been no death. Christ died as the sinner's substitute, to save him from the penalty of his disobedience. Could the law of God have been changed or abolished, Christ need not have died; for death was not necessary in order to abolish the law. The fact that God spared not his own sinless, beloved Son from the penalty he pledged himself to bear as the sinner's substitute, is the most telling argument that could be produced to show that the claims of his law will not be released, even in the slightest degree, to save the transgressor. So in the death of Christ we have evidence, not only of God's love for sinful man, but of the changeless character of his law. The law could not be abolished; one precept could not be altered to save the sinner and meet man in his fallen condition; but God so loved the world that he gave his Son to suffer the penalty of its transgression in the sinner's stead. {ST, July 29, 1886 par. 2}

Through the death of Christ a door of hope was opened for fallen man. Man was under sentence of death for the transgression of the law of God. He was under condemnation as a traitor, as a rebel; but Christ came to be his substitute, to die as a malefactor, to suffer the penalty of the traitors, bearing the weight of their sins upon his divine soul. He descended lower and lower till there was no lower depths of humiliation to sound in order that he might lift up those who would believe in him, and cleanse the guilty from moral defilement, and impart to them his own righteousness. He died to make an atonement, to redeem, cleanse, restore, and exalt man to a place at his right hand. {ST, February 27, 1893 par. 1}

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #146961
11/14/12 07:56 PM
11/14/12 07:56 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: MM
"He died to make an atonement, to redeem, cleanse, restore, and exalt man to a place at his right hand."
Where is the legal part in this statement?

Let me ask this question: is God's Law proscriptive, prescriptive, or descriptive?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #146967
11/14/12 11:07 PM
11/14/12 11:07 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
The problem:

Quote:
Ephesians 2:3 (NIV)

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.


Is this a solution:

Quote:
Isaiah 53:4-7(NIV)

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Johann] #146970
11/14/12 11:46 PM
11/14/12 11:46 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
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APL, It is so obvious that you do not realize that we are in the middle of a battle against demons.

"Adam, in transgressing the law of Jehovah, had opened the door for Satan, who had planted his banner in the midst of the first family. He was made to feel, indeed, that the wages of sin was death. Satan designed to gain Eden by deceiving our first parents..." {Con 23.3}

The issue is not only restoration of man to heaven, but the destruction of the enemy of righteousness, who uses men to war against God.

If we are not connected to heaven, then Satan and his angels dwell in us. Satan tries to hurt God through us, and any connection to sin leaves the door open for Satan to survive through us. So in order to free the universe from the taint of the influence of demons, God first had to quarantine our fallen world, then come down to show us the way, and soon He will execute the traitors.

Sanctification closes the door that Satan uses through us to hurt God and us.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #146972
11/15/12 12:28 AM
11/15/12 12:28 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: MM
"He died to make an atonement, to redeem, cleanse, restore, and exalt man to a place at his right hand."
Where is the legal part in this statement?


Atonement.

This sacrificial offering has both legality and love intermingled.

Was it proper to bring what God had not asked for to make atonement? Was Cain's offering accepted? He 'legally' needed to be connected with God through obedience in following God's word to be redeemed. But he failed to meet the legal requirements so he did not benefit from the offering.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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