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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#147141
11/19/12 06:56 AM
11/19/12 06:56 AM
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OP
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At this point it would probably be good to look at Numbers 18, the chapter after the one in which we are told Aaron's rod budded. 18:1 And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.
18:2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee [shall minister] before the tabernacle of witness.
18:3 And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle: only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar, that neither they, nor ye also, die.
18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.
18:5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar: that there be no wrath any more upon the children of Israel.
18:6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you [they are] given [as] a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the veil; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office [unto you] as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
18:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.
18:9 This shall be thine of the most holy things, [reserved] from the fire: every oblation of theirs, every meat offering of theirs and every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, [shall be] most holy for thee and for thy sons.
18:10 In the most holy [place] shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.
18:11 And this [is] thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it.
18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
18:13 [And] whatsoever is first ripe in the land, which they shall bring unto the LORD, shall be thine; every one that is clean in thine house shall eat [of] it.
18:14 Everything devoted in Israel shall be thine.
18:15 Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, [whether it be] of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.
18:16 And those that are to be redeemed from a month old shalt thou redeem, according to thine estimation, for the money of five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, which [is] twenty gerahs.
18:17 But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they [are] holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat [for] an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
18:18 And the flesh of them shall be thine, as the wave breast and as the right shoulder are thine.
18:19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it [is] a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
18:20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I [am] thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, [even] the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
18:22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer [as] an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
18:25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, [even] a tenth [part] of the tithe.
18:27 And [this] your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though [it were] the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.
18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.
18:29 Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, [even] the hallowed part thereof out of it.
18:30 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress.
18:31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it [is] your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.
18:32 And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die. That's a little long, so for those who like to skim, here are the salient points that come to my mind: you can look for them in the passage. 1) The priesthood was given to Aaron and to his sons "forever." 2) Trespass offerings and priesthood (ministering in the holy place) were for the males only. 3) Both men and women of the Levites were entitled to eat of the heave offerings. 4) The priesthood had no inheritance among the other tribes of Israel but were given the tithes of all the tribes to support them. 5) Even the priests paid a tithe of the tithes they received to God. (This goes along with our separate tithe discussion in another thread.) Here are the two verses that probably sum up the chapter best: But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer [as] an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. (Numbers 18:23-24) Tithing has not changed. We still pay tithe. If, as many like to suggest, the "priesthood" has been abolished, why do we still tithe? The tithe was for the priests and Levites. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#147143
11/19/12 07:15 AM
11/19/12 07:15 AM
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GC - Do you believe in the priesthood of ALL believers? ALL? 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; SDABC: 1 Peter 2:9Chosen generation. Gr. genos eklekton, “elect kind,” “chosen people.” The “corner stone” is also said to be “chosen” ( eklekton, 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:6; cf. Revelation 17:14). The Jewish nation was once “chosen” to represent God on earth (see Vol. IV, pp. 26, 27; see on Isaiah 43:10), but because of unbelief and hardness of heart they lost their favored position (see Vol. IV, pp. 30, 31). Peter here declares that God has now assigned the privileges and responsibilities of the Jewish nation to the Christian community, not as a national group, but as a people called out of every nation to constitute one spiritual entity, one great family, throughout the world (see on Galatians 3:28). The former special status of literal Israel has been revoked (see Vol. IV, pp. 35, 36). Royal priesthood. A quotation from the LXX of Exodus 19:6 (see comment there), where the same Greek expression ( basileion hierateuma) is used. Compare on Revelation 1:6, where textual evidence attests the reading “a kingdom, priests.” As priests, Christians are to offer to God the “spiritual sacrifices” mentioned in 1 Peter 2:5; they also offer themselves as living sacrifices (see on Romans 12:1), a body of believers completely dedicated to God. They need no human priest serving as mediator between them and God, for there is but one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (see on Hebrews 7:17; Hebrews 7:24-28; cf. Hebrews 4:16). Holy nation. As God set the Jewish nation apart to bear witness to the principles of His government (see on Deuteronomy 7:6), so He later called the Christian church to be a “holy nation” to represent Him on earth (see Vol. IV, pp. 35, 36). Peculiar. Gr. peripoiēsis, “possession,” “[one’s] own property,” literally, “an acquisition” (see on Ephesians 1:14). Compare the related verb, peripoieō, “to acquire [for oneself],” “to preserve [for oneself].” The English word “peculiar,” which properly means “belonging to an individual,” “privately owned,” “one’s own,” is from the Latin peculiaris, “one’s own,” “belonging particularly to oneself,” “special.” The use of “peculiar” to mean “queer” or “eccentric” is colloquial, and the idea that Peter so characterizes God’s people here is not justified by the Greek word peripoiēsis (see on Deuteronomy 14:2). The expression translated “peculiar people” reads, literally, “a people into possession,” meaning “a people whom God has come into possession of,” or “a people God has acquired for Himself,” “a people that belongs to God.” See on Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6; Malachi 3:17. Christ has acquired the church and considers it to be in a special sense His own purchased possession (see on Acts 20:28; Ephesians 1:14). Shew forth. Literally, “proclaim abroad.” Praises. Gr. aretai, “excellences,” “perfections,” with emphasis on these qualities actively manifested in deeds. Reference here is to God’s glorious character, abounding love, and gracious provision for the salvation of sinners (see Exodus 34:6-7). God acquired the church as His own special possession in order that its members might reflect His precious traits of character in their own lives and proclaim His goodness and mercy to all men. By the winsomeness of a Christlike personality and the compassion of Christlike deeds Christians are to reveal God to the world as Jesus did (see on 2 Corinthians 2:14-16). Darkness. The Scriptures speak of the “darkness of this world” ( Ephesians 6:12) and the “works of darkness” ( Romans 13:12), which are “unfruitful” ( Ephesians 5:11). God’s people are not “in darkness” ( 1 Thessalonians 5:4), because they have been called from it (see on John 1:5). Marvellous. Or, “wonderful,” “astonishing.” Light. A term descriptive of truth ( Matthew 4:16; Luke 11:35) and of those who abide in it ( Matthew 5:14; Acts 13:47; Ephesians 5:8). Jesus Christ (see on John 1:4-5; John 1:9; John 8:12) and the Father ( 1 John 1:5) are the source of all light. The light of truth dispels the darkness of ignorance, and is thus a Biblical symbol of the presence and guidance of God (see on John 1:4; John 1:7).
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: APL]
#147145
11/19/12 08:12 AM
11/19/12 08:12 AM
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OP
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GC - Do you believe in the priesthood of ALL believers? ALL? 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; Christians, from their earliest beginnings, were apart from the Jews. In AD 34, the Jewish nation, as a people, was rejected from being God's special people, and Christians replaced the Jews. In the new Christian era, "Israel" could include any believer, Jew or Gentile--any nationality could be included in "Israel." This was demonstrated with Philip and the Ethiopian, Peter and Cornelius, and with Jesus and the Samaritan woman. (See Galatians 3:28, and Ephesians 3:10.) But while any "tribe" of the earth could now participate as a "Levite" (seeing as the original Levites were part of the nation of Israel which had been replaced by Christians), not every believer is automatically "upgraded" to a tithe-receiving "Levite." The tithes are still appropriated for the spiritual leadership only, and while the entire nation, just like ancient Israel was to be, may be looked upon as a spiritual leader for the world, the spiritual leadership within that nation is still special to that nation. I guess what I see here are two angles: - spiritual light and leadership to the world, and
- spiritual light and leadership to the nation of Israel.
Let us not forget one very important fact: being a kingdom of priests was not new to the Christian believers.And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. (Exodus 19:6) It has always been a part of the plan that the entire nation is as a kingdom of priests. But God ordained the Levites to be the spiritual leadership of that kingdom and to receive the tithes. God still sets aside the "Levites" of today for this responsibility and privilege. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#147147
11/19/12 02:41 PM
11/19/12 02:41 PM
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But while any "tribe" of the earth could now participate as a "Levite" (seeing as the original Levites were part of the nation of Israel which had been replaced by Christians), not every believer is automatically "upgraded" to a tithe-receiving "Levite." The tithes are still appropriated for the spiritual leadership only, and while the entire nation, just like ancient Israel was to be, may be looked upon as a spiritual leader for the world, the spiritual leadership within that nation is still special to that nation.
...
It has always been a part of the plan that the entire nation is as a kingdom of priests. But God ordained the Levites to be the spiritual leadership of that kingdom and to receive the tithes. God still sets aside the "Levites" of today for this responsibility and privilege. Are you saying that we can identify who the spiritual leaders are, because they are the ones that receive the tithe? Is the tithe then limited to only to the ordained? I will feel it in my duty to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls. I know that the faithful women should be paid wages proportionate to the pay received by ministers. They carry the burden of souls, and should not be treated unjustly. These sisters are giving their time to educating those newly come to the faith, and hire their own work done, and pay those who work for them. All these things must be adjusted and set in order, and justice be done to all. ... {SpM 117.3} EGW included women as spiritual leaders, due tithe money for their support.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#147148
11/19/12 03:31 PM
11/19/12 03:31 PM
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God still holds strict adherence for His selection of spiritual leadership of the people. While I agree that God still chooses His leaders, I don't think the tie to Aaron's rod holds. Hebrews is pretty clear that the Aaronic priesthood has been replaced by Christ, a priest in the order of Melchizedek. Perhaps the more enduring lesson of Aaron's rod is that God can still quicken the dead and cause him to bear fruit in spite of the helplessness of the raw material. Please supply the scriptures to back up your position. For example, what makes you think that Christ made a "change" to the representation of Aaron's rod? The manna has not changed. The Ten Commandments have not changed. What makes Aaron's rod different from these, when they were placed in the same category in the ark? Priesthood Hebrews 7:11-14
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.But it wasn't the only one that was upgraded by Christ. Manna John 6:48-51
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.10C Hebrews 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: APL]
#147151
11/19/12 04:19 PM
11/19/12 04:19 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2021
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But while any "tribe" of the earth could now participate as a "Levite" (seeing as the original Levites were part of the nation of Israel which had been replaced by Christians), not every believer is automatically "upgraded" to a tithe-receiving "Levite." The tithes are still appropriated for the spiritual leadership only, and while the entire nation, just like ancient Israel was to be, may be looked upon as a spiritual leader for the world, the spiritual leadership within that nation is still special to that nation.
...
It has always been a part of the plan that the entire nation is as a kingdom of priests. But God ordained the Levites to be the spiritual leadership of that kingdom and to receive the tithes. God still sets aside the "Levites" of today for this responsibility and privilege. Are you saying that we can identify who the spiritual leaders are, because they are the ones that receive the tithe? Is the tithe then limited to only to the ordained? I will feel it in my duty to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls. I know that the faithful women should be paid wages proportionate to the pay received by ministers. They carry the burden of souls, and should not be treated unjustly. These sisters are giving their time to educating those newly come to the faith, and hire their own work done, and pay those who work for them. All these things must be adjusted and set in order, and justice be done to all. ... {SpM 117.3} EGW included women as spiritual leaders, due tithe money for their support. This is a Bible study. Feel free to bring Bible passages to support your views about whom may receive the tithe. According to the Bible, yes, it seems that the tithes went to support the Levites. However, were all Levites priests? Were all Levites men? If there were no women among the Levites, how did their tribe continue? Obviously, women were among the Levites and, as such, were supported by tithes. A pastor today who is paid by tithe money supports his wife also from that money, does he not? This was the Levitical system. The priests received the tithes of all, which then supported their entire tribe. In fact, the Levites were also ordained to other responsibilities within the sanctuary service besides that of priesthood. There were singers, musicians, doorkeepers, treasurers, porters, etc. who were also employed in the service of the sanctuary and who received tithes as well. If Levitical women were part of those duties, in any way, even though it might have been "merely" the important work of supporting their husbands and teaching their children, certainly it would be consistent to have supported them too from the tithes, wouldn't it? There is no direct mention of which I am aware of women involved in the service as singers or musicians, etc., but it seems only the leaders of these groups were mentioned. It is highly probable that women were a part of the service in some way, in my view. Women were known to sing in Israel on multiple other occasions, such as after having crossed the Red Sea under Miriam's direction. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#147163
11/19/12 11:27 PM
11/19/12 11:27 PM
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Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—
I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: asygo]
#147181
11/20/12 03:35 AM
11/20/12 03:35 AM
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OP
SDA
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The Orient
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Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—
I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi. There's another text which seems to include all of the males, from a month old and upward, in the duties of the sanctuary. Obviously, an infant could do very little. But they were counted as part of the "team." In the number of all the males, from a month old and upward, [were] eight thousand and six hundred, keeping the charge of the sanctuary. (Numbers 3:28) So that's a little bigger slice.  Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: asygo]
#147186
11/20/12 03:40 PM
11/20/12 03:40 PM
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Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—
I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi. Could this be why Christ didn't begin His ministry until He was 30?
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Daryl]
#147195
11/20/12 08:35 PM
11/20/12 08:35 PM
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SDA
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Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—
I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi. Could this be why Christ didn't begin His ministry until He was 30? I think so. So if you take that and combine it with the prophesied time of His anointing, you can get a good idea of when He was to be born. So with some arithmetic, the Magi didn't have to wander around for too long. 
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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