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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147196
11/20/12 08:41 PM
11/20/12 08:41 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: asygo
Numbers 4:46-47
46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses, 47 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, everyone who came to do the work of service and the work of bearing burdens in the tabernacle of meeting—


I think they were all men, between 30 and 50 years old. That's a very small slice of the tribe of Levi.


There's another text which seems to include all of the males, from a month old and upward, in the duties of the sanctuary. Obviously, an infant could do very little. But they were counted as part of the "team."

Originally Posted By: The Bible
In the number of all the males, from a month old and upward, [were] eight thousand and six hundred, keeping the charge of the sanctuary. (Numbers 3:28)


So that's a little bigger slice. wink

Yes, that's a bigger slice, perhaps approaching half.

Now for the interesting part: Are these toddlers, who are part of the "team" of Levites, ordained for the work of the sanctuary?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147206
11/21/12 05:57 AM
11/21/12 05:57 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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I'm not sure if "ordained" fits them in our modern sense of the word, but for them I think that they were ordained, yes. Consider Samuel, for example. He was a child, who as a child, ministered in the sanctuary. We have no record of when the Levites were to begin their training, nor, so far as I am aware, do we see any special age requirements for, say, high priest. Clearly, Samuel, or any child for that matter, could not have served as a high priest. But Samuel was a priest as a small child.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But Samuel ministered before the LORD, [being] a child, girded with a linen ephod. (1 Samuel 2:18)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147224
11/21/12 03:17 PM
11/21/12 03:17 PM
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And as you mentioned, not all Levites were priests, right?

So, tithe money can be used to support men, women, and children, but it doesn't necessarily mean they were to serve as priests. Minister yes, priests or high priests, no. Only a select few.


But this is side straying. Ordination of what we mean seems to be different and in fact, I don't see any specific word being used or reserved for what was back then. It appears to me that people are smudging the definitions and using them to urge their view. I think the word, "ordained" needs to be put aside and some principles need to be outlined. For some reason, women did not serve as priests. Is that a cultural thing of the time which changes with time or is that a rule? Or is it an absolute? Adam and Eve's relationship seems to maybe have something to do with it. But is that only within the family or does apply within the church, too?

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: kland] #147233
11/21/12 05:07 PM
11/21/12 05:07 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Ordination of what we mean seems to be different and in fact, I don't see any specific word being used or reserved for what was back then.
It seems you are looking for a New Testament term for the Old Testament practice of "ordination," if that is what they called it, am I reading correctly?

The New Testament is where we largely derive our concept of ordination, certainly. But it seems to have existed already with the priesthood.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: (Hebrews 5:1)

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. (Hebrews 8:3)


There are several Old Testament texts which speak of ordaining priests as well, but the word "ordination" is not necessarily required there, as it seems the "ordination" was by God's direct command, and it automatically included all male Levites, as the case with Samuel so well illustrates--he being yet a child and ministering in the sanctuary.

For the position of high priest, the term "consecrated" appears (at least in the KJV).

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And [he that is] the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes; (Leviticus 21:10)

But any son of Aaron appears to have been automatically a priest.
Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people: (Leviticus 21:1)


As for whether or not this was all a "cultural thing of the time" or whether it was a "rule," I think the Old Testament was clear about that. It was not a "cultural thing" which had the Divine command behind it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147281
11/22/12 02:43 AM
11/22/12 02:43 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I'm not sure if "ordained" fits them in our modern sense of the word, but for them I think that they were ordained, yes.

So here's one important point to catch: They were ordained and eligible for tithe, but not in the way we "ordain" today. Our system today does not match the old system.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Consider Samuel, for example. He was a child, who as a child, ministered in the sanctuary. We have no record of when the Levites were to begin their training, nor, so far as I am aware, do we see any special age requirements for, say, high priest. Clearly, Samuel, or any child for that matter, could not have served as a high priest. But Samuel was a priest as a small child.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But Samuel ministered before the LORD, [being] a child, girded with a linen ephod. (1 Samuel 2:18)

There's another very important point here. How did Samuel become a priest, since his father was an Ephraimite? Where do we find that Samuel was a Levite? Where do we find that Samuel was a descendant of Aaron?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147299
11/22/12 07:18 AM
11/22/12 07:18 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I'm not sure if "ordained" fits them in our modern sense of the word, but for them I think that they were ordained, yes.

So here's one important point to catch: They were ordained and eligible for tithe, but not in the way we "ordain" today. Our system today does not match the old system.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Consider Samuel, for example. He was a child, who as a child, ministered in the sanctuary. We have no record of when the Levites were to begin their training, nor, so far as I am aware, do we see any special age requirements for, say, high priest. Clearly, Samuel, or any child for that matter, could not have served as a high priest. But Samuel was a priest as a small child.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But Samuel ministered before the LORD, [being] a child, girded with a linen ephod. (1 Samuel 2:18)

There's another very important point here. How did Samuel become a priest, since his father was an Ephraimite? Where do we find that Samuel was a Levite? Where do we find that Samuel was a descendant of Aaron?


Samuel appears not to have been a descendent of Aaron. However, you may recall that after Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, were destroyed before the Lord, God opened up the priesthood to all of the tribe of Levi. Samuel was of the tribe of Levi.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
1 Chronicles
6:16 The sons of Levi; Gershom, Kohath, and Merari.
6:17 And these [be] the names of the sons of Gershom; Libni, and Shimei.
6:18 And the sons of Kohath [were], Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel.
6:19 The sons of Merari; Mahli, and Mushi. And these [are] the families of the Levites according to their fathers.
6:20 Of Gershom; Libni his son, Jahath his son, Zimmah his son,
6:21 Joah his son, Iddo his son, Zerah his son, Jeaterai his son.
6:22 The sons of Kohath; Amminadab his son, Korah his son, Assir his son,
6:23 Elkanah his son, and Ebiasaph his son, and Assir his son,
6:24 Tahath his son, Uriel his son, Uzziah his son, and Shaul his son.
6:25 And the sons of Elkanah; Amasai, and Ahimoth.
6:26 [As for] Elkanah: the sons of Elkanah; Zophai his son, and Nahath his son,
6:27 Eliab his son, Jeroham his son, Elkanah his son.
6:28 And the sons of Samuel; the firstborn Vashni, and Abiah.
6:29 The sons of Merari; Mahli, Libni his son, Shimei his son, Uzza his son,
6:30 Shimea his son, Haggiah his son, Asaiah his son.
6:31 And these [are they] whom David set over the service of song in the house of the LORD, after that the ark had rest.
6:32 And they ministered before the dwelling place of the tabernacle of the congregation with singing, until Solomon had built the house of the LORD in Jerusalem: and [then] they waited on their office according to their order.
6:33 And these [are] they that waited with their children. Of the sons of the Kohathites: Heman a singer, the son of Joel, the son of Shemuel,
6:34 The son of Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah,
6:35 The son of Zuph, the son of Elkanah, the son of Mahath, the son of Amasai,
6:36 The son of Elkanah, the son of Joel, the son of Azariah, the son of Zephaniah,
6:37 The son of Tahath, the son of Assir, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah,
6:38 The son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, the son of Israel.


As you can see, the lineage is given first forwards, then in reverse, with two spellings for "Samuel," apparently. There were several "Elkanah's" in that line...all from Kohath, of Levi.

This brings up an important point that I just have not had time to answer you on yet relating to a previous post of yours. I'll try to get back to that soon.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147339
11/23/12 05:41 AM
11/23/12 05:41 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Let's start with all of the Bible texts (using the KJV standard) on the topic of ordination that relate to people and use some form of the word "ordain" in the English translation. (There are some uses of "ordain" that relate to objects or actions outside the scope of this topic which we will ignore.)

Principal Texts on Ordination
1 Chronicles 9:22All these [which were] chosen to be porters in the gates [were] two hundred and twelve. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office.
2 Chronicles 11:14-15For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD: And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
Jeremiah 1:4-5Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Mark 3:14-15And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
John 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Acts 1:21-26Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], show whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 10:40-42Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 14:23And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Acts 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1 Corinthians 7:17-20But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
1 Timothy 2:7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Titus 1:5-6For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Hebrews 5:1-4For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
Hebrews 8:1-3Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.






If I could just add a couple more,

1 Kings 13:33-34; 33 After this event Jeroboam did not turn from his evil way, but again he made priests from every class of people for the high places; whoever wished, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places. 34 And this thing was the sin of the house of Jeroboam, so as to exterminate and destroy it from the face of the earth." (bold emphasis mine) (NKJV)

God actually says He will exterminate them from the earth. Quite a terrible judgment.

Hebrews 7:5 says; "And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;"

Hebrews specifies "sons of Levi".

It looks as if I shouldn't have quoted your post, Green Cochoa. Sorry.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 11/23/12 04:09 PM. Reason: Enabled HTML in post
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #147346
11/23/12 04:26 PM
11/23/12 04:26 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Samuel appears not to have been a descendent of Aaron. However, you may recall that after Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, were destroyed before the Lord, God opened up the priesthood to all of the tribe of Levi.

No, I don't recall that. What I remember is that Aaron's two other sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, took over. I don't remember the priesthood being opened up to the rest Levi. Can you give the reference? Thanks.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #147347
11/23/12 04:32 PM
11/23/12 04:32 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Hebrews 7:5 says; "And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;"

Hebrews specifies "sons of Levi".

Verse 11 limits it further to Aaron. The Levitical priesthood was "of Levi" because Aaron was a Levite.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: asygo] #147348
11/23/12 04:52 PM
11/23/12 04:52 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Samuel appears not to have been a descendent of Aaron. However, you may recall that after Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, were destroyed before the Lord, God opened up the priesthood to all of the tribe of Levi.

No, I don't recall that. What I remember is that Aaron's two other sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, took over. I don't remember the priesthood being opened up to the rest Levi. Can you give the reference? Thanks.


Here is the reference:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Numbers
3:2 And these [are] the names of the sons of Aaron; Nadab the firstborn, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
3:3 These [are] the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest's office.
3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father.
3:5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
3:6 Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may minister unto him.
3:7 And they shall keep his charge, and the charge of the whole congregation before the tabernacle of the congregation, to do the service of the tabernacle.
3:8 And they shall keep all the instruments of the tabernacle of the congregation, and the charge of the children of Israel, to do the service of the tabernacle.
3:9 And thou shalt give the Levites unto Aaron and to his sons: they [are] wholly given unto him out of the children of Israel.


This appears to be the reason why, ever afterward, the Word of God speaks of "Levites" and we don't see the term "Aaronites." From this point on it seems any member of the tribe of Levi was ordained to minister in the sanctuary.

We can guess at the reasons God did this, but since the Bible itself says that neither Nadab nor Abihu had any children when they died, and since Nadab was the eldest of Aaron's sons, it may well have been that the younger two sons were not married or had no sons either to help them minister in the sanctuary. It seems they needed more help.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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