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Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: kland] #148305
12/21/12 03:37 PM
12/21/12 03:37 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Where was Moses buried? Answer that, and I'll believe you may know when Jesus was born.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
And Christmas will soon be here. It is supposed that Christ was born on the 25th day of December, and for that reason it is celebrated as His birthday. But it is impossible for us to know upon what day He was born. You can know no more about that than the children of Israel could know where Moses was buried. The reason God has not revealed that fact is because you would have worshiped that day, as they would have worshiped the grave of Moses had they found it, and this is just what they have done with the day they supposed was the one on which Christ was born. {21MR 223.2}

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Green Cochoa] #148354
12/24/12 06:08 PM
12/24/12 06:08 PM
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kland  Offline
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The first evidence of the Christmas feast is from Egypt, referenced to the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911.



Quote:
Ezr 10:9 Then all the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered themselves together unto Jerusalem within three days. It was the ninth month, on the twentieth day of the month; and all the people sat in the street of the house of God, trembling because of this matter, and for the great rain.

Ezr 10:13 But the people are many, and it is a time of much rain, and we are not able to stand without, neither is this a work of one day or two: for we are many that have transgressed in this thing.


Were flocks and shepherds out in the rain?

But a bigger question is, Would Augustus require the citizens to return to their native lands in the middle of the winter and rainy season?

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #148421
12/26/12 08:14 PM
12/26/12 08:14 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: dedication


That's one of the most interesting parts.

Micah, the Jewish prophet who foretold the Messiah's birth in Bethlehem, (Micah 5:2) also prophesied:

"And you, O Tower of the Flock (in Hebrew, Migdal Eder), the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, unto you shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem" (Micah 4:8).

So here Micah foretells that the Messiah, who embodied the hope of the Kingdom, "was to be revealed from Migdal Eder - 'the Tower of the Flock'."

Close by where the Bethlehem shepherds were that night was the tower known as Migdal Eder, the "watch-tower of the flock." This was the station where shepherds brought their flocks destined for sacrifices in the Temple.

The shepherds who kept them were men who were specifically trained to take care of these lambs destined for sacrifice.
Jesus, the lamb of God, was born in this very place.




Clearly the city of Jesus' birth was Bethlehem as Micah 5:2 prophesied and as the Gospels of Matthew, Luke and John confirm. (See Matthew 2:1,5-6,8,16; Luke 2:4,15; John 7:42) "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2)

This tower at Bethlehem is first mentioned in Genesis 35:21, "And Israel journeyed, and spread his tent beyond the tower of Edar" ("tower of Edar" - Migdal Edar).

Jacob brought his family to Edar (the tower) and there Rachel died after delivering her son, Benjamin. She was buried there in Ephratah which is Bethlehem" (Gen. 35:19).

Later, when the temple in Jerusalem was in operation, this tower was also the place ewes were safely brought to give birth to the lambs. In this sheltered building/cave the priests would bring in the ewes which were about to lamb for protection.

According to Edersheim in "The Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah," in Book 2, Chapter 6, states, "This Migdal Edar was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks that pastured on the barren sheep ground beyond Bethlehem, but it lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage from the Mishnah (Shekelim 7:4) leads to the conclusion that the flocks which pastured there were destined for Temple sacrifices."

So the fields outside of Bethlehem became the place where a special group of shepherds raised the lambs that were sacrificed in the Temple. The tower was maintained as a ceremonially clean stable for a birthing place for these lambs. The surrounding fields was where shepherds grazed the flocks.

These shepherds customarily kept their flocks outdoors twenty-four hours a day every day of the year, it was only the ewes that were brought inside to deliver their lambs. These lambs had to be carefully cared for during the first few days of their lives, because they must not have any blemish.

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Green Cochoa] #148422
12/26/12 08:25 PM
12/26/12 08:25 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Where was Moses buried? Answer that, and I'll believe you may know when Jesus was born.
Green Cochoa.


We don't know the exact date when Jesus was born -- but there are clues in scripture which make the "season" we focus on Christ's birth, not the day quite possible to be the time when He was born.
Originally Posted By: by dedication

Zacharias (John the Baptist's father) was serving in the temple during the
course of Abia. (Luke 1:5) He is told by an angel that his wife would have a
son. (1:13) Elizabeth conceives shortly after. (1:24) Six months later the angel
tells Mary she will conceive. (1:26,36) Mary stays with Elizabeth for three
months till John is born. (1:56) Jesus is born six months after John the
Baptist.

Interestingly enough, the Bible does give some rather definite time here.

So when was Zacharias serving in the temple?

Well there are TWO possibilities.

The priests of the 8th course of Abia served in the 10th week (end of
May/June)as well as the 34th week (late Sept/Oct) each year. So adding at least
two weeks for conception to occur John the Baptist was probably born either in
late March/early April (around Passover time) OR early in late June/early July.

Add six months to that would place Jesus birth either in
late September/early August (the seventh month of the Jewish calendar) OR late
December/early January (about the time the world celebrates Christ's birth.)

Zacharias
Serving 10th week..............Serving 34th week
John born Mar/Apr..............John born June/July
Jesus born Sept/Oct.............Jesus born Dec/Jan.

Interestingly the original date of the celebration in Eastern Christianity was
January 6, in connection with Epiphany, and that is still the date of the
celebration for the Armenian Apostolic Church.


Where was Moses buried?

Deut. 32:49-50 Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho...And die in the mount whither thou goest up.

So even though we don't know the exact spot, we do know the location.
Of course Moses isn't buried there any more, as he was resurrected and taken to the heaven.

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #148424
12/26/12 09:59 PM
12/26/12 09:59 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Dedication,

Read some more and you'll learn some more. For starters, Moses wasn't buried on mount Nebo. I don't believe that the Christmas season is when Jesus was born either.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Green Cochoa] #148428
12/27/12 02:07 AM
12/27/12 02:07 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Read some more and you'll learn some more. For starters, Moses wasn't buried on mount Nebo. I don't believe that the Christmas season is when Jesus was born either.


Now, I wonder how the person who completed the last chapter in the book of Deut. after Moses death, would know anything beyond the point that I quoted? Moses goes up the mountain ALONE, following the directions given him. He dies, and the Lord takes his body and buries it in a valley in Moab.

But what difference does it make? Moses isn't in any grave. Christ resurrected him and took him to heaven.

As to believing Christ was born in the Christmas season -- that's totally up to you.
I simply showed from scripture the two most likely times when He was born and one of them was late December/early January.

It is possible that He was born during the Christmas season, (late December to early January)

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #148434
12/27/12 03:04 AM
12/27/12 03:04 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dedication
Now, I wonder how the person who completed the last chapter in the book of Deut. after Moses death, would know anything beyond the point that I quoted?
That's an interesting question, but there's no need to question the source of Inspiration. We can accept it as fact. Since Moses was not buried where he died, and since there must have been a great many valleys in Moab, there's no way of telling where he was buried. The surest thing we have is that it was not on a mountain.

Regarding Christmas and the nativity, it's almost the surest thing we have that Christ was not born at that time either. I think it most likely that He was born in September.

The following website raises pertinent points in this regard:

http://christmasxmas.xanga.com/395124709/item/

The major points are these:

1) Most everyone agrees that the months of greatest precipitation in Palestine were the winter-spring months.
2) Three of the winter months have frost in Israel.
3) Snow can fall during those times, especially December-January.
4) Shepherds would not be out on the hills in such weather. They traditionally brought their sheep into the folds during the winter months, leaving the hills by mid-October.
5) No Roman governor would have asked the citizens to travel for a census over such muddy or icy roads.
6) The inn in Bethlehem would have been full at one of the feast times, such as the feast of tabernacles (Septemberish). (Bethlehem was but a short distance from Jerusalem.) A Roman governor may well have capitalized upon such a time of gathering to conduct his census.

Anyhow, the link above quotes from many well-known sources and Bible commentaries. There's no reason to push for the Christmas date of Jesus' birth, is there? Why should we fancy that date?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Green Cochoa] #148481
12/28/12 03:04 PM
12/28/12 03:04 PM
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kland  Offline
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Quote:
Why should we fancy that date?
If we are of the type of those in Constantine's day trying to justify it.

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Green Cochoa] #148487
12/28/12 06:18 PM
12/28/12 06:18 PM
Johann  Offline
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Iceland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa


- - - There's no reason to push for the Christmas date of Jesus' birth, is there? Why should we fancy that date?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I did not until I read the instructions of Ellen G White. Is it not safe for us to follow her counsel any more?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Green Cochoa] #148525
12/30/12 05:49 AM
12/30/12 05:49 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

The following website raises pertinent points in this regard:

http://christmasxmas.xanga.com/395124709/item/

The major points are these:

1) Most everyone agrees that the months of greatest precipitation in Palestine were the winter-spring months.
2) Three of the winter months have frost in Israel.
3) Snow can fall during those times, especially December-January.
4) Shepherds would not be out on the hills in such weather. They traditionally brought their sheep into the folds during the winter months, leaving the hills by mid-October.


None of these points disqualifies the season.
We already found out that sheep kept by the "tower of the flock" were outside year round. The ewes being brought in only to lamb.

GreenC:
5) No Roman governor would have asked the citizens to travel for a census over such muddy or icy roads.

Response:
That is mere assumption. Now, I agree, Christ could also have been born end of Sept/beginning October. However, a Roman governor could ask the people to travel anytime he wanted. And winter is a time when the people weren't doing that much else.


GreenC.
6) The inn in Bethlehem would have been full at one of the feast times, such as the feast of tabernacles (Septemberish). (Bethlehem was but a short distance from Jerusalem.) A Roman governor may well have capitalized upon such a time of gathering to conduct his census.

Response:
Bethlehem was just a small village -- probably had only one inn. So it won't take much to fill it.

Remember that everyone had to go to the city of their fathers for the censes. This wasn't a call for everyone to come to Bethlehem. (or Jerusalem) So feast time would have been very difficult -- many of the people would have had to report in cities far from Jerusalem and won't have been able to attend the feast.
So I don't see how it would be "capitalizing" on a gathering when it was asking people to travel in all directions.


GreenC.
Anyhow, the link above quotes from many well-known sources and Bible commentaries. There's no reason to push for the Christmas date of Jesus' birth, is there? Why should we fancy that date?

Response:
The issue is -- are we more righteous by denouncing it when it COULD have been the season.
Is it right to put people on a guilt trip because they remember Christ's birth in a special way during this season?


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