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Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #148531
12/30/12 12:30 PM
12/30/12 12:30 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
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Died February 12, 2019

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This discussion was suppose to be about the Pope's confession. Not about when Jesus was born. I think we're getting out of topic a bit.

I did read something interesting concerning the 25th of December being the potential date of Jesus conception. Which would bring us to His birth 9 months later on the first day of Trumpet in the Fall Feast. Then at exactly one year from his date of conception... the 3 wise kings came to worship him which would fall on the 25th of December. This person that presented this, had extensively use scripture and historical records. I'll see if I can find that study.

Is there another discussion already started about the date of the birth of Jesus and related issues? If not, maybe we should open one.


Blessings
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Elle] #148743
01/05/13 01:34 AM
01/05/13 01:34 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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I don't see December 25th even being a potential date of the birth of Christ.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Daryl] #148746
01/05/13 01:52 AM
01/05/13 01:52 AM
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Elle  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
I don't see December 25th even being a potential date of the birth of Christ.

I didn't say that it was a potential date for the birth, but for His conception. It takes 9 months for the birth afterwards. Therefore, it would place his birth during the fall feast(around end of September beg. of october). We know the wise men didn't see a newborn baby, so it is possible that they found him Dec 25th when he was 3 months old.


Blessings
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Elle] #148955
01/12/13 12:45 AM
01/12/13 12:45 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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The wise men may have found him when He was 3 months old?

That's a new thought that I never heard before.

Interesting.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Daryl] #159605
12/25/13 05:02 PM
12/25/13 05:02 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
I don't see December 25th even being a potential date of the birth of Christ.


Zacharius (John the Baptist's father) was serving in the temple during the course of Abia. (Luke 1:5) He is told by an angel that his wife would have a son. (1:13) Elizabeth conceives shortly after. (1:24) Six months later the angel tells Mary she will conceive. (1:26,36) Mary stays with Elizabeth for three months till John is born. (1:56) Jesus is born six months after John the Baptist.

So when was Zacharias in the temple?
Well there are TWO possibilities.

The priests of the 8th course of Abia served in the 10th week (end of May/June) as well as the 34th week (late Sept/Oct). So adding at least two weeks for conception to occur John was probably born either in March (around Passover time) OR early in July.

Add six months to that would place Jesus birth either in
September (the seventh month of the Jewish calendar) OR late December (about the time the world celebrates Christ's birth.)

The purpose is not to convince anyone of a specific date, as the date is not given in inspiration, but rather to show that there is evidence that the end of December or beginning of January is one of the possible times.

The idea some like to promote that people were ordered to go to their city of birth during a festival time is not really practical. It would have ruined the festival as people had to travel to the place of their birth (or origins) to be taxed, and for many that was NOT necessarily to Jerusalem. They couldn't be in both places at once.

Seems more reasonable that Caesar Augustus would order such a command at a time when there was no harvest or festival to attend to.

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #159609
12/25/13 05:46 PM
12/25/13 05:46 PM
dedication  Online Content
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But what is even more meaningful to me is the following:

Micah, the Jewish prophet who foretold the Messiah's birth in Bethlehem, also prophesied,
Quote:
"And you, O Tower of the Flock (in Hebrew, Migdal Eder), the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, unto you shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem" (Micah 4:8).


So here Micah foretells that the Messiah, who embodied the hope of the Kingdom, "was to be revealed from Migdal Eder - 'the Tower of the Flock'."

What and where is this “tower of the flock”.
It is just outside of Bethlehem on the way to Jerusalem.
Migdal Edar was the watchtower that guarded the Temple flocks that were being raised to serve as sacrificial animals in the Temple. These were not just any flock and herd. The shepherds who kept them were men who were specifically trained for this royal task. They were educated in what an animal, that was to be sacrificed, had to be and it was their job to make sure that none of the animals were hurt, damaged, or blemished." These lambs were apparently wrapped in "swaddling cloth" to protect them from injury and also used to wrap the Lord Jesus.

Thus, with the establishment of Temple worship in Jerusalem, the fields outside of Bethlehem became the place where a special group of shepherds raised the lambs that were sacrificed in the Temple. Unlike other shepherds, these shepherds kept these flocks outside year round, only the birthing ewes were brought into the tower where the new born lambs were carefully tended.

When we study the symbolism of the sacrificial types, "Migdal Edar", (the tower of the flock) at Bethlehem is the perfect place for Christ to be born. He was born in the very birthplace where tens of thousands of lambs, which had been sacrificed to prefigure Him. God promised it, pictured it, and performed it at "Migdal Edar". It all fits together, for that's the place where sacrificial lambs were born! Jesus was born in Bethlehem, at the birthing place of the sacrificial lambs that were offered in the Temple in Jerusalem which Micah 4:8 calls the "tower of the flock."



Quote:
John 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #159612
12/25/13 09:37 PM
12/25/13 09:37 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
But what is even more meaningful to me is the following:

Micah, the Jewish prophet who foretold the Messiah's birth in Bethlehem, also prophesied,
Quote:
"And you, O Tower of the Flock (in Hebrew, Migdal Eder), the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, unto you shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem" (Micah 4:8).


So here Micah foretells that the Messiah, who embodied the hope of the Kingdom, "was to be revealed from Migdal Eder - 'the Tower of the Flock'."

What and where is this “tower of the flock”.
It is just outside of Bethlehem on the way to Jerusalem.
Migdal Edar was the watchtower that guarded the Temple flocks that were being raised to serve as sacrificial animals in the Temple. These were not just any flock and herd. The shepherds who kept them were men who were specifically trained for this royal task. They were educated in what an animal, that was to be sacrificed, had to be and it was their job to make sure that none of the animals were hurt, damaged, or blemished." These lambs were apparently wrapped in "swaddling cloth" to protect them from injury and also used to wrap the Lord Jesus.

Thus, with the establishment of Temple worship in Jerusalem, the fields outside of Bethlehem became the place where a special group of shepherds raised the lambs that were sacrificed in the Temple. Unlike other shepherds, these shepherds kept these flocks outside year round, only the birthing ewes were brought into the tower where the new born lambs were carefully tended.

When we study the symbolism of the sacrificial types, "Migdal Edar", (the tower of the flock) at Bethlehem is the perfect place for Christ to be born. He was born in the very birthplace where tens of thousands of lambs, which had been sacrificed to prefigure Him. God promised it, pictured it, and performed it at "Migdal Edar". It all fits together, for that's the place where sacrificial lambs were born! Jesus was born in Bethlehem, at the birthing place of the sacrificial lambs that were offered in the Temple in Jerusalem which Micah 4:8 calls the "tower of the flock."



Quote:
John 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.

The problem with that view is that it is not talking about the birth of Christ. Look carefully at the text once again:

"In that day, says the Lord,
I will assemble the lame,
I will gather the outcast
And those whom I have afflicted;
I will make the lame a remnant,
And the outcast a strong nation;
So the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on, even forever.

And you, O tower of the flock,
The stronghold of the daughter of Zion,
To you shall it come,
Even the former dominion shall come,
The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem."

Notice that Micah is prophesying about the REIGN of the Messiah, not his birth. And then he says:

"And you, O tower of the flock (the stronghold of the daughter of Zion), to you shall it come ..."

Jesus is called THE TOWER of the flock and also THE STRONGHOLD of the daughter of Zion (i.e. THE HEAD of the Church). Notice the parallelism to explain meaning of THE TOWER. To him was going to come something. And what was that something going to be? "Even the former dominion shall come, the kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem."

The prophecy has nothing to do with the birth of Christ, but his status within the Church. He is that strong tower and that stronghold and that abiding rock.

////

Last edited by James Peterson; 12/25/13 11:13 PM.
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: James Peterson] #159616
12/26/13 04:58 AM
12/26/13 04:58 AM
dedication  Online Content
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And I suppose this verse just a couple verses down from Micah 4:8 also is NOT talking about Christ's birth according to you???

Quote:
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.
5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time [that] she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.



These verses are speaking of the coming of the Messiah and that includes His birth.

The parallels are obvious;

Quote:
4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.



Christ was coming to deliver them --
He would come to Bethlehem to the Tower of the flock as the LAMB of God.

But of course they didn't want that kind of a king. The clues were there but most didn't see it.

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #159617
12/26/13 06:02 AM
12/26/13 06:02 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
And I suppose this verse just a couple verses down from Micah 4:8 also is NOT talking about Christ's birth according to you???

Quote:
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.
5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time [that] she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.



These verses are speaking of the coming of the Messiah and that includes His birth.

The parallels are obvious;

Quote:
4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.



Christ was coming to deliver them --
He would come to Bethlehem to the Tower of the flock as the LAMB of God.

But of course they didn't want that kind of a king. The clues were there but most didn't see it.


Unfortunately, Micah 4:8 is not saying the same thing as 5:2. Read it again, carefully.

1. In 4:8, Jesus IS CALLED "the tower of the flock".
2. In 5:2 Jesus COMES OUT OF "Bethelem Ephrathah".

He is called "the tower of the flock" which is IN "Bethlehem Ephrathah". See? It does not say that he was born in the tower, but is THE TOWER in Bethlehem. He is "the stronghold of the daughter of Zion" (4:8) who proceeds out of Israel (5:2). There is a difference.

///

Last edited by James Peterson; 12/26/13 06:12 AM.
Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: James Peterson] #159618
12/26/13 08:32 AM
12/26/13 08:32 AM
dedication  Online Content
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I differ from your opinion.\

Migdal Eder, literally "Tower of Eder" is a place.
It is mentioned several times in Jewish writings.
It was an actual, literal tower. A watch tower with space on the first floor that was used as "stable" where specially trained shepherds raised sacrificial lambs, during the temple era.
It was located close to Bethlehem on the way to Jerusalem.

Another mention of the tower in the Bible is in Genesis 35:21
"Israel [Jacob] journeyed on, and pitched his tent beyond the tower of Eder"

Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus, the Messiah, interprets Micah 4:8 as a prophesy indicating that the Messiah would be revealed from the "tower of the flock" (Migdal Eder) which is connected with the town of Bethlehem, southeast of Jerusalem.

The deliver and king will come to the Tower of the Flock-- the Messiah, who embodied the hope of the Kingdom, "was to be revealed from Migdal Eder - 'the Tower of the Flock'."

It does NOT say HE is the tower in Bethlehem
These are two different verses -- parallel verses
Announcing the coming of the Messiah

Look to Bethlehem (the town the Messiah will come from)
Look to the tower (the specific location where He will come)

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