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Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #159621
12/26/13 12:51 PM
12/26/13 12:51 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
I differ from your opinion.\

Migdal Eder, literally "Tower of Eder" is a place.
It is mentioned several times in Jewish writings.
It was an actual, literal tower. A watch tower with space on the first floor that was used as "stable" where specially trained shepherds raised sacrificial lambs, during the temple era.
It was located close to Bethlehem on the way to Jerusalem.

Another mention of the tower in the Bible is in Genesis 35:21
"Israel [Jacob] journeyed on, and pitched his tent beyond the tower of Eder"

Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus, the Messiah, interprets Micah 4:8 as a prophesy indicating that the Messiah would be revealed from the "tower of the flock" (Migdal Eder) which is connected with the town of Bethlehem, southeast of Jerusalem.

The deliver and king will come to the Tower of the Flock-- the Messiah, who embodied the hope of the Kingdom, "was to be revealed from Migdal Eder - 'the Tower of the Flock'."

It does NOT say HE is the tower in Bethlehem
These are two different verses -- parallel verses
Announcing the coming of the Messiah

Look to Bethlehem (the town the Messiah will come from)
Look to the tower (the specific location where He will come)

LOOK CAREFULLY, read and understand the vision:

"And you, O tower of the flock,
The stronghold of the daughter of Zion,
To you shall it come,
Even the former dominion shall come,
The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem."

1. In line 1, who is "O tower of the flock"?
2. In line 3, who is "you" and what is "it"?

Don't you see that TO the tower was going to come dominion? Not that the Lamb was going to come to the tower, but the Lamb was going to be like the tower and to him the former dominion was going to come.

Do I have to teach you English now? Be not stubborn, nor be haughty. See that I speak righteousness to you and not falsehood; for false prophets will surely die.

////

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: James Peterson] #159629
12/27/13 03:24 AM
12/27/13 03:24 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,468
Canada
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: dedication
I differ from your opinion.



Do I have to teach you English now? Be not stubborn, nor be haughty. See that I speak righteousness to you and not falsehood; for false prophets will surely die.

////


Are you claiming to be a prophet, and everyone who does not agree with you is stubborn and a false prophet?

WOW!!!

I'm sorry but that is not a convincing argument -- indeed it sounds like it is coming from a haughty person!



As to the English --

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #159630
12/27/13 04:05 AM
12/27/13 04:05 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
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4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Yes, this is talking about the coming of the Messiah --


4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

The kingdom, as Jesus explained in many of His parables began when Christ was accepted and reigned in the heart and minds of the people, this was "the first dominion, and must take place before the glorious kingdom which is still future.
It was this first kingdom of the heart and mind where the Lord gathers His people.

Examples:
"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: ....
"The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed,...
"Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. ....


Indeed Christ is the promised KING!





4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

This is the verse in question.

To what will this "kingdom of grace" come?
It comes to the "tower of the flock --
It comes to the daughter of Jerusalem.

It is Christ's coming that BRINGS the kingdom to the people.
This is the promise of the coming king --

By coming to the "Migdal Eder" the very place where the lambs were born and raised for the sacrificial services prefiguring HIM, -- the REALITY came -- bringing the reality of salvation which is only through His sacrificial death, by which the kingdom of grace comes to the people.



4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.


Why are they crying --
They are crying because they weren't experiencing this kingdom. They were crying because of the darkness of sin, and they were experiencing the terrible results of their sin and there seemed NO HOPE --

4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

The Jewish nation was about to experience the destruction of their country by Babylon. Many would die and the rest taken captive into Babylon. But Micah is telling them -- there is hope!
They would be brought back to their land, and the Messiah WOULD be born and bring in the kingdom of Grace --

and yes, those who enter into that kingdom, will ultimately enjoy the glorious kingdom established after sin is forever banished.

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #159631
12/27/13 04:15 AM
12/27/13 04:15 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Yes, this is talking about the coming of the Messiah --


4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

The kingdom, as Jesus explained in many of His parables began when Christ was accepted and reigned in the heart and minds of the people, this was "the first dominion, and must take place before the glorious kingdom which is still future.
It was this first kingdom of the heart and mind where the Lord gathers His people.

Examples:
"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: ....
"The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed,...
"Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. ....


Indeed Christ is the promised KING!





4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

This is the verse in question.

To what will this "kingdom of grace" come?
It comes to the "tower of the flock --
It comes to the daughter of Jerusalem.

It is Christ's coming that BRINGS the kingdom to the people.
This is the promise of the coming king --

By coming to the "Migdal Eder" the very place where the lambs were born and raised for the sacrificial services prefiguring HIM, -- the REALITY came -- bringing the reality of salvation which is only through His sacrificial death, by which the kingdom of grace comes to the people.



4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.


Why are they crying --
They are crying because they weren't experiencing this kingdom. They were crying because of the darkness of sin, and they were experiencing the terrible results of their sin and there seemed NO HOPE --

4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

The Jewish nation was about to experience the destruction of their country by Babylon. Many would die and the rest taken captive into Babylon. But Micah is telling them -- there is hope!
They would be brought back to their land, and the Messiah WOULD be born and bring in the kingdom of Grace --

and yes, those who enter into that kingdom, will ultimately enjoy the glorious kingdom established after sin is forever banished.

LOOK CAREFULLY, read and understand the vision:

"And you, O tower of the flock,
The stronghold of the daughter of Zion,
To you shall it come,
Even the former dominion shall come,
The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem."

1. In line 1, who is "O tower of the flock"?
2. In line 3, who is "you" and what is "it"?

Just answer the two simple questions, that's all.

///

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: James Peterson] #159693
12/28/13 07:00 AM
12/28/13 07:00 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,468
Canada
I think we are entering the battle of the different Bible versions here. Your version completely changes the meaning of the verse.

But first notice:

Quote:
4:8 And you, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto you shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] you be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of you shall he come forth ...


Notice the personification of a PLACE in both passages.

To you Bethlehem
To you Tower of the Flock

The YOU (or thou) in both cases refers to a place -- a literal place.
The town of Bethlehem and the tower that was used as the place where the temple animals were raised for the sacrificial rituals.


Then the translation you are using changes "first" to "former"
but is that correct? They didn't need Christ to come to earth to restore the former sinful dominion that they had before Babylon's invasion.

BUT they did need Christ, the Son of God, to come to offer them the first dominion of the kingdom of grace. The hope of salvation, to open wide the door so they could boldly approach the throne of grace and receive pardon and promise of eternal life in the kingdom of glory.

Then your version changes the whole meaning:

from
"the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem."
to
"The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem"

Your translation gives a completely different rendering of the text implying that the former kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem will be given to the "tower of the flock".

Whereas the KJV shows that a Savior would come and bring a first kingdom TO the daughter of Jerusalem.

So the question is == which translation do I accept?

I'll stick to the translation of the KJV


To you oh tower of the flock (you = the tower, the place where the REALITY -- the true Lamb of God will be born, -- will come)
to you it shall come (it = salvation through the Lamb)
The kingdom of grace will come TO the daughter of Jerusalem.






Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #159786
12/30/13 03:31 PM
12/30/13 03:31 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,436
Midland
"Then the translation you are using changes "first" to "former""

Does the English ever allow "the former" to be "the first"?


And since you are talking English here, and not manuscripts, what should it say and why?

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: Elle] #197221
12/27/23 05:54 AM
12/27/23 05:54 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,468
Canada
Originally Posted by Kland
"Then the translation you are using changes "first" to "former""
Does the English ever allow "the former" to be "the first"?
And since you are talking English here, and not manuscripts, what should it say and why?

"Former" means it happened earlier. It was. True it could mean what first happened will happen again.
If we go back all the way to what Adam lost in the garden of Eden.

Quote
But the Son of God proposed to come to this earth to pay the penalty of sin, and thus not only redeem man, but recover the dominion forfeited. It is of this restoration that Micah prophesied when he said, "O Tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion" (Micah 4:8)


It's true Christ came to restore the dominion lost by Adam.
But there was also a new, first kingdom, that Christ established at His first coming. A kingdom that people need to be citizens in, to qualify to partake in the final restoration of the lost dominion.



People needed Christ, the Son of God, to come to ratify the kingdom of grace. The kingdom of grace which was ratified at the cross. Without it, Christ's victory to regain the dominion would be of no hope to mankind. The kingdom of grace is the hope of salvation, to open wide the door so they could boldly approach the throne of grace and receive pardon and promise of eternal life in the kingdom of glory.
Quote
The kingdom of grace ... was not actually established until the death of Christ...The kingdom of grace, which had before existed by the promise of God, was then established. {GC88 347.2}


The kingdom of God?s grace is now offered to everyone, as day by day hearts that have been full of sin and rebellion yield to the sovereignty of His love. But the full establishment of the kingdom of His glory will not take place until the second coming of Christ to this world.
The lost dominion won't be re-established until then. But Christ came to earth to ratify the kingdom of grace. That has been established!

That night just over 2000 years ago, the Creator of the universe left the realms of glory and came to this dark world, in it's darkness. Matt. 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung.

Like the little lambs born in the tower, just outside of Bethlehem, for the sole purpose to be sacrificed in Jerusalem. Yet their blood could never actually take away sin. So the Lamb of God was born, to die the greatest sacrifice, to take away our sin. Bringing light and life.

Re: Pope confess that Jesus not born Dec 25th-- is pagan, birth year and calendar not correct, and .... [Re: dedication] #197223
12/30/23 09:58 AM
12/30/23 09:58 AM
Rick H  Offline
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,141
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by dedication
I think we are entering the battle of the different Bible versions here. Your version completely changes the meaning of the verse.

But first notice:

Quote
4:8 And you, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto you shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] you be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of you shall he come forth ...


Notice the personification of a PLACE in both passages.

To you Bethlehem
To you Tower of the Flock

The YOU (or thou) in both cases refers to a place -- a literal place.
The town of Bethlehem and the tower that was used as the place where the temple animals were raised for the sacrificial rituals.


Then the translation you are using changes "first" to "former"
but is that correct? They didn't need Christ to come to earth to restore the former sinful dominion that they had before Babylon's invasion.

BUT they did need Christ, the Son of God, to come to offer them the first dominion of the kingdom of grace. The hope of salvation, to open wide the door so they could boldly approach the throne of grace and receive pardon and promise of eternal life in the kingdom of glory.

Then your version changes the whole meaning:

from
"the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem."
to
"The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem"

Your translation gives a completely different rendering of the text implying that the former kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem will be given to the "tower of the flock".

Whereas the KJV shows that a Savior would come and bring a first kingdom TO the daughter of Jerusalem.

So the question is == which translation do I accept?

I'll stick to the translation of the KJV


To you oh tower of the flock (you = the tower, the place where the REALITY -- the true Lamb of God will be born, -- will come)
to you it shall come (it = salvation through the Lamb)
The kingdom of grace will come TO the daughter of Jerusalem.





Got to watch the text in those new versions..

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