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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147821
12/03/12 03:35 AM
12/03/12 03:35 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Removing sin has both a legal and a transformation aspect.


To deny the one is sort of like saying all roses are red, and bringing lots of red roses to the forum to prove it. Sure there are lots of red roses, but that doesn't prove all roses are red.


I know you could find hundreds of quotes on the life changing power of God's grace in a person's life, but there are also a lot of quotes showing the legal side of the cross as Jesus took our sins and took the punish that was ours so we could be given the righteousness of Christ.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147822
12/03/12 04:10 AM
12/03/12 04:10 AM
dedication  Online Content
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"Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. [b]The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner.... {OHC 52.3}


"Our acceptance with God is sure only through His beloved Son, and good works are but the result of the working of His sin-pardoning love. They are no credit to us, and we have nothing accorded to us for our good works by which we may claim a part in the salvation of our souls. Salvation is God's free gift to the believer, given to him for Christ's sake alone. The troubled soul may find peace through faith in Christ, and his peace will be in proportion to his faith and trust. He cannot present his good works as a plea for the salvation of his soul. {3SM 199.3}

"Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. "With His stripes we are healed." {DA 25.2}

"The world's Redeemer was treated as we deserve to be treated, in order that we might be treated as he deserved to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins upon his own divine soul, that we might receive his imputed righteousness. He was condemned for our sins, in which he had no share, that we might be justified by his righteousness, in which we had no share. The world's Redeemer gave himself for us. Who was he?--The Majesty of heaven, pouring out his blood upon the altar of justice for the sins of guilty man. {RH, March 21, 1893 par. 6}

"He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee.
He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}

"That the transgressor might have another trial, that men might be brought into favor with God the Father, the eternal Son of God interposed Himself to bear the punishment of transgression. One clothed with humanity, who was yet one with the Deity, was our ransom. The very earth shook and reeled at the spectacle of God's dear Son suffering the wrath of God for man's transgression. The heavens were clothed in sackcloth to hide the sight of the Divine Sufferer. {LHU 153.3}

"There is only one channel and that is accessible to all, and through that channel a rich and abundant forgiveness awaits the penitent, contrite soul and the darkest sins are forgiven. These lessons were taught to the chosen people of God thousands of years ago, and repeated in various symbols and figures, that the work of truth might be riveted in every heart, that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. . . . Justice demanded the sufferings of man; but Christ rendered the sufferings of a God. He needed no atonement of suffering for Himself; all His sufferings were for us; all His merits and holiness were open to fallen man, presented as a gift. {FLB 102.4}

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147823
12/03/12 05:21 AM
12/03/12 05:21 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Nature is not self-acting:

Quote:
Many teach that matter possesses vital power. They hold that certain properties are imparted to matter, and it is then left to act through its own inherent power; and that the operations of nature are carried on in harmony with fixed laws, that God himself cannot interfere with. This is false science, and is sustained by nothing in the word of God. Nature is not self-acting; she is the servant of her Creator. God does not annul his laws nor work contrary to them; but he is continually using them as his instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active agency, that works in, and through, and above her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Said Christ, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." {HL 290.1}

God has finished his creative work, but his energy is still exerted in upholding the objects of his creation. It is not because the mechanism that was once been set in motion continues its work by its own inherent energy that the pulse beats, and breath follows breath; but every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the all-pervading care of Him in whom we live and have our being. It is not because of inherent power that year by year the earth produces her bounties, and continues her motion around the sun. The hand of God guides the planets, and keeps them in position in their orderly march through the heavens. It is through his power that vegetation flourishes, that the leaves appear and the flowers bloom. His word controls the elements, and by him the valleys are made fruitful. He covers the heavens with clouds, and prepares rain for the earth; he "maketh grass to grow upon the mountains." "He giveth snow like wool; he scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes." "When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures."--S. of T., 1884, No. 12. {HL 290.2}

The fire that Jesus will rain down on sinners at the end of time and helps form the lake of fire is not the radiant glory emanating from the Father's physical person nor is it the glory of His character:

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Satan and his angels try to encourage the wicked multitude to action; but fire descends from Heaven, and unites with the fire in the earth, and aids in the general conflagration. {3SG 86.1}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87.2}

Jesus has often employed the forces of nature to punish and destroy sinners:

Quote:
Coal and oil are generally to be found where there are no burning mountains or fiery issues. When fire and water under the surface of the earth meet, the fiery issues cannot give sufficient vent to the heated elements beneath. The earth is convulsed, the ground heaves, and rises into swells or waves, and there are heavy sounds like thunder under ground. The air is heated, and suffocating. The earth quickly opens, and I saw villages, cities and burning mountains carried down together into the earth. {1SP 82.1}

God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be, his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram, they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power. Those who have beheld these burning mountains pouring forth fire, and flame, and a vast amount of melted ore, drying up rivers and causing them to disappear, have been struck with terror at the grandeur of the scene. They have been filled with awe as though they were beholding the infinite power of God. {1SP 82.2}

These manifestations bear the special marks of God's power, and are designed to cause the people of the earth to tremble before him, and to silence those who, like Pharaoh, would proudly say, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice?" Isaiah refers to these exhibitions of God's power where he exclaims, "Oh! that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence, as when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence! When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence." Isaiah 64:1-3. {1SP 83.1}

"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers. Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him." Nahum 1:3-6. {1SP 83.2}

"Bow thy heavens, O Lord, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them." Psalm 144:5, 6. {1SP 84.1}

Greater wonders than have yet been seen will be witnessed by those upon the earth a short period previous to the coming of Christ. "And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke." "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." {1SP 84.2}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud, into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks, and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. The saints are preserved in the earth in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. {1SP 84.4}

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147827
12/03/12 05:43 AM
12/03/12 05:43 AM
APL  Offline
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Dedication said: "Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner.... {OHC 52.3}

APL: Sinners are justified - that mean, set right. Not a legal idea, but a tranformational process. The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}

When we receive this free give, "...we become partakers of His nature; henceforth we live His life.
{MH 157.5} Interesting the book here quoted is the Ministry of Healing, not the Ministry of Jurispudence.

"Our acceptance with God is sure only through His beloved Son, and good works are but the result of the working of His sin-pardoning love. They are no credit to us, and we have nothing accorded to us for our good works by which we may claim a part in the salvation of our souls.
Salvation is God's free gift to the believer, given to him for Christ's sake alone. The troubled soul may find peace through faith in Christ, and his peace will be in proportion to his faith and trust. He cannot present his good works as a plea for the salvation of his soul. {3SM 199.3}

AMEN!

This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags."
Isaiah 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

So, this is not what is sometimes called the candy-coated-rotten-apple theory, where we are covered by Christ robe, be we are still rotten inside. When we are covered by Christ robe of righteousness, we are have been transformed, we life His life. When God looks upon us, He sees His Son - literally. Sin has been taken away. This is not a legal process. It is a trust/healing process, the essence of the Gospel.


"Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves.
He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. "With His stripes we are healed." {DA 25.2}

Exactly!!! By His stripes, WE ARE HEALED. If this was a legal process, then everyone would be saved. But they are not. Only those that allow God to transform us into His likeness will be saved.


"The world's Redeemer was treated as we deserve to be treated, in order that we might be treated as he deserved to be treated. He came to our world and
took our sins upon his own divine soul, that we might receive his imputed righteousness. He was condemned for our sins, in which he had no share, that we might be justified by his righteousness, in which we had no share. The world's Redeemer gave himself for us. Who was he?--The Majesty of heaven, pouring out his blood upon the altar of justice for the sins of guilty man. {RH, March 21, 1893 par. 6}

Yes, the broken law demands the death of the sinner. And I have ID'd that law and how it is passed on to the entire human race. A legal pardon will not save a sinner. Sinners must be transformed, a total transformation (SC chap. 5). We MUST be BORN AGAIN, and this is literal, and physical, and not legal.

"He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--
offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee.
He,
the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}

Yes. He was the Sin Bearer. He carried our sin in his Body on the tree (1 Peter 2:24). That is why he died! But since he never participated in that sin, he was raised again. And it is His Life that saves us, Romans 5:10. The work He now does in the Heavenly Sanctuary is that application of what He achieved on the cross. If this was a legal penalty and He suffered the second death, then he should still be dead.

"That the transgressor might have another trial,
that men might be brought into favor with God the Father, the eternal Son of God interposed Himself to bear the punishment of transgression. One clothed with humanity, who was yet one with the Deity, was our ransom. The very earth shook and reeled at the spectacle of God's dear Son suffering the wrath of God for man's transgression. The heavens were clothed in sackcloth to hide the sight of the Divine Sufferer. {LHU 153.3}

Yes! We must be brought back into favor with God, we must be transformed, renewed, born again, healed. Salvation = Healing. Look up the original words.

"There is only one channel and that is accessible to all, and through that channel a rich and abundant
forgiveness awaits the penitent, contrite soul and the darkest sins are forgiven. These lessons were taught to the chosen people of God thousands of years ago, and repeated in various symbols and figures, that the work of truth might be riveted in every heart, that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. . . . Justice demanded the sufferings of man; but Christ rendered the sufferings of a God. He needed no atonement of suffering for Himself; all His sufferings were for us; all His merits and holiness were open to fallen man, presented as a gift. {FLB 102.4}

Exactly. Christ had to come, die, and be raised gain. Christ had to experience this.
Hebrews 2:17-18 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. Remission = Aphesis, just as forgive = Aphiemi in 1 John 1:9. Save concept. Sin must be removed.





Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147829
12/03/12 06:03 AM
12/03/12 06:03 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
asygo:
Weakness is hereditary.
The genome is hereditary.
Therefore, weakness is in the genome.


The logic is bad.

APL: Where exactly is the bad logic?

Can't do a detailed analysis now, but the short answer is that your middle term is used improperly - it is not distributed.
Please explain how the genome is not hereditary.

I didn't say the second premise was false. I said the middle term - hereditary - was undistributed. See http://www.fallacyfiles.org/undismid.html.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147830
12/03/12 06:11 AM
12/03/12 06:11 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nature is not self-acting:

  • You hear of calamities by land and by sea, and they are constantly increasing. What is the matter? The Spirit of God is taken away from those who have the lives of
    men in their hands, and Satan is coming in to control them, because they give themselves to his control. Those who profess to be the children of God do not place themselves under the guardianship of the heavenly angels, and as Satan is a destroyer, he works through those men and they make mistakes; and they will get drunk, and because of intemperance, many times bring these terrible calamities upon us. {2SM 51.4}
    And see the storms and tempests. Satan is working in the atmosphere; he is poisoning the atmosphere, and here we are dependent upon God for our lives--our present and eternal life. And being in the position that we are, we need to be wide awake, wholly devoted, wholly converted, wholly consecrated to God. But we seem to sit as though we were paralyzed. God of heaven, wake us up!-- Manuscript 1, 1890. {2SM 52.1}

So MM - would you ascribe all the things we now see happening as punishment sent by God?

Romans 1 describes God wrath. And what is it? It is God leaving man to himself. And when that happens, all hell breaks loose.
  • What Pharaoh has done, will be done again and again by men until the close of probation. God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief and will reap as he has sown. As it was with Pharaoh, so it will be with him; when clearer light shines upon the truth, he will meet it with increased resistance, and the work of hardening the heart will go on with each rejection of the increasing light of heaven. In simplicity and truth we would speak to the impenitent in regard to the way in which men destroy their own souls. You are not to say that God is to blame, that he has made a decree against you. No, he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth, and to the haven of eternal bliss. No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation. God follows men with appeals and warnings and assurances of compassion until further opportunities and privileges would be wholly in vain. The responsibility rests upon the sinner. By resisting the Spirit of God today, he prepares the way for a second resistance of light when it comes with mightier power; and thus he will pass from one stage of indifference to another, until at last the light will fail to impress him, and he will cease to respond in any measure to the Spirit of God. {RH, October 24, 1912 par. 2}
  • God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves. {YI, November 30, 1893 par. 6}
  • I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}

    We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147831
12/03/12 06:16 AM
12/03/12 06:16 AM
APL  Offline
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MM - consider the case of the fiery serpents. You can say, God used them to punish. But how did that happen?

During the journeyings of the children of Israel through the wilderness, Jesus Christ, enshrouded in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night, led them on their way, indicating where they should march and where they should pitch their tents. Christ guarded them from all the beasts of the wilderness and from the poisonous serpents. This they had reason to know; for when God removed His restraining power from the serpents, great was the affliction in the camp of the Israelites. Their murmuring was a constant offense to God. He saw that they had thrown off all fear of Him, and He permitted fiery serpents to attack them, that they might realize how in the past His power had guarded them from untold dangers. {14MR 345.2}

Because they had been shielded by the power of God, the Israelites did not realize the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. They had hardened their hearts in unbelief, and were unwilling to be guided and controlled by God; they dwelt upon imaginary evils, and continually distrusted the hand which had hitherto led them. Again and again the Lord had brought them into strait places to prove whether they would trust in him, after so many evidences of his care. But they failed to endure the test; and now, though the Heaven-sent manna lay fresh upon the ground every morning, they dared to accuse Moses of killing them with hunger. In their ingratitude and unbelief, they had anticipated death, and now the Lord withdrew his protecting hand, and permitted death to come upon them. {ST, October 28, 1880 par. 5}

The Lord had fed them with the bread of heaven, even with angels' food; and yet they murmured against him. By his power he had held in check the wild beasts of the forests, and the reptiles of the wilderness, so that they had not hurt his people; but now he removed his restraining hand, and let the poisonous serpents do as they would have done all along the way had the Lord not restrained them. The real trouble that now came upon them served to bring them to their senses, and to awaken their paralyzed thoughts as to what course to pursue. "Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. . . . And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole; and it shall come to pass, that everyone that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole; and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147832
12/03/12 06:23 AM
12/03/12 06:23 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
If the law is only a legal law...

That's the main logical fallacy that keeps this debate going. It is a Straw Man. Nobody in this thread advocates that God's law is ONLY a legal requirement, or that the solution needed is ONLY a legal one. What we are saying is that both imparted AND imputed righteousness are needed.

But you deny Christ's imputed righteousness. You do not want the legal aspects of His grace.

But no matter how much healing you receive, or how good your DNA becomes, or how good your works are, your righteousnesses will still be filthy rags. You will still need HIS robe, wrought through HIS obedience, to cover your nakedness. Unless you see that, you will continue to hide behind fig leaves. And when He comes, you will be forced to confess that you are still naked.

Look at God's initial acts in the restoration of man. He did not teach them how to sew leaves better. Rather, He taught them to accept the covering provided by the slain Lamb.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147833
12/03/12 07:25 AM
12/03/12 07:25 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Please tell me how we inherit traits from our father that are not in the genome.

I don't know. But then, there are many truths that I don't know. I don't even know how divine chromosmes can be compatible with Mary's human set.

See, didn't I tell you that if you ask a question that I can't answer, I'll say so? wink

Originally Posted By: APL
Can you plainly say that EGW it not talking about genetics in this quote? If she is not talking about genetics, please identify what she is talking about. I anxiously await your reply.

I can plainly say that this goes beyond genetics. How can genetics explain how Deity can come from the genetic material of a sinner + who knows what from the Holy Spirit? If it was all genetics, how can Jesus not be born with the same evil, sinful propensities that we all did? And how does genetics explain how we can inherit guilt from Adam? Genetics might explain some things, but it doesn't cover all the bases.

So exactly what does cover all the bases? I don't know. But it sure doesn't look like genetics will do the trick. And it would be another logical fallacy to think that since I have no valid alternative, that your proposal must be correct.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147836
12/03/12 01:56 PM
12/03/12 01:56 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
APL,

HOw is it that the concept of Christ as our Substitute fits into your view?

Quote:
A legal pardon will not save a sinner. Sinners must be transformed, a total transformation (SC chap. 5). We MUST be BORN AGAIN, and this is literal, and physical, and not legal.

If justification was just the new birth, there would be no need for Christ to obey the law on our behalf and impute His righteous character to us.

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