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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Green Cochoa] #147991
12/06/12 03:34 AM
12/06/12 03:34 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
So, do you believe that the fallen angels mated with the sons of God in Genesis 6?
No. Do you?

Certainly not. But then, there has been no genetic transfer of DNA or other genetic information from Lucifer to us, has there?
What do you believe "seed" means or symbolizes in the Bible?
Genesis 3:15
15 And I will putH7896 enmityH342 betweenH996 you and the woman,H802 and betweenH996 your seedH2233 and her seed;H2233 itH1931 shall bruiseH7779 your head,H7218 and youH859 shall bruiseH7779 his heel.H6119

H2233
זרע
zera‛
BDB Definition:
1) seed, sowing, offspring
     1a) a sowing
     1b) seed
     1c) semen virile
     1d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
     1e) of moral quality
          1e1) a practitioner of righteousness (figuratively)
     1f) sowing time (by metonymy)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H2232
Same Word by TWOT Number: 582a

Septuagint - transliterated: Genesis 3:15 kai echthran thēsō ana meson sou kai ana meson tēs gunaikos kai ana meson tou spermatos sou kai ana meson tou spermatos autēs autos sou tērēsei kephalēn kai su tērēseis autou pternan

Genesis 1:11-12
11 And GodH430 said,H559 Let the earthH776 bring forthH1876 grass,H1877 the herbH6212 yieldingH2232 seed,H2233 and the fruitH6529 treeH6086 yieldingH6213 fruitH6529 after his kind,H4327 whoseH834 seedH2233 is in itself, onH5921 the earth:H776 and it wasH1961 so.H3651
12 And the earthH776 brought forthH3318 grass,H1877 and herbH6212 yieldingH2232 seedH2233 after his kind,H4327 and the treeH6086 yieldingH6213 fruit,H6529 whoseH834 seedH2233 was in itself, after his kind:H4327 and GodH430 sawH7200 thatH3588 it was good.H2896
Genesis 1:29
29 And GodH430 said,H559 Behold,H2009 I have givenH5414 you(H853) everyH3605 herbH6212 bearingH2232 seed,H2233 whichH834 is onH5921 the faceH6440 of allH3605 the earth,H776 and everyH3605 tree,H6086 in the whichH834 is the fruitH6529 of a treeH6086 yieldingH2232 seed;H2233 to you it shall beH1961 for meat.H402
Genesis 4:25
25 And AdamH121 knewH3045 (H853) his wifeH802 again;H5750 and she boreH3205 a son,H1121 and calledH7121 his(H853) nameH8034 Seth:H8352 ForH3588 God,H430 said she, has appointedH7896 me anotherH312 seedH2233 instead ofH8478 Abel,H1893 whom CainH7014 slew.H2026
Genesis 7:3
3 Of fowlsH4480 H5775 alsoH1571 of the airH8064 by sevens,H7651 H7651 the maleH2145 and the female;H5347 to keep seedH2233 aliveH2421 onH5921 the faceH6440 of allH3605 the earth.H776
Genesis 9:9
9 And I,H589 behold,H2009 I establishH6965 (H853) my covenantH1285 withH854 you, and withH854 your seedH2233 afterH310 you;
Genesis 12:7
7 And the LORDH3068 appearedH7200 toH413 Abram,H87 and said,H559 To your seedH2233 will I giveH5414 (H853) thisH2063 land:H776 and thereH8033 builtH1129 he an altarH4196 to the LORD,H3068 who appearedH7200 toH413 him.
Genesis 13:15
15 ForH3588 (H853) allH3605 the landH776 whichH834 youH859 see,H7200 to you will I giveH5414 it, and to your seedH2233 for ever.H5704 H5769

and a whole bunch more verses...

What do you think the word "seed" means? Offspring, descendants, genetic material. That is what it sound like to me. Back to Genesis 3:15. There will be enmity between the SEED of the serpent and the SEED of the woman. Does the Devil have offspring? Is any of the DNA in our body not original DNA? The answer is a clear YES. At least 50% is not original, and perhaps has much as 90% by the estimate of one author. Where did that DNA come from? This added DNA is made up of what is called mobile genetic elements. It plays havoc with the genome. There are a number of different types of the added DNA. SINES, LINES, Transposons. and retroviruses. These things bring in alternate gene promotors involved in gene transcription. They alter gene expression. Evolutionists like to point to Australia and all the marsupial animals as proof of evolution. However, the genes that code for proteins in placental animals and marsupials are the same! The "non-coding" DNA, where all the mobile genetic elements are located is what is different.

Let met ask another question - where did viruses come from? Did God create them? Some genes in Viruses have no examples in living organisms. Viruses are the ultimate of selfishness. They highjack a cell to make more of themselves. How about HIV? Did God create HIV? HIV is a retrovirus which will kill its host. So, do viruses cause disease? Cause and Effect! Sin is to disease as cause is to effect. These things are the work of the devil.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. And what is interesting is the next verse: 1 John 3:9 WhoeverG3956 is bornG1080 ofG1537 GodG2316 does notG3756 commitG4160 sin;G266 forG3754 hisG848 seedG4690 remainsG3306 inG1722 him:G846 andG2532 he cannotG1410 G3756 sin,G264 becauseG3754 he is bornG1080 ofG1537 God.G2316

G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
Thayer Definition:
1) from which a plant germinates
     1a) the seed, i.e. the grain or kernel which contains within itself the germ of the future plants
          1a1) of the grains or kernels sown
     1b) metaphorically a seed, i.e. a residue, or a few survivors reserved as the germ of the next generation (just as seed is kept from the harvest for the sowing)
2) the semen virile
     2a) the product of this semen, seed, children, offspring, progeny
     2b) family, tribe, posterity
     2c) whatever possesses vital force or life giving power
          2c1) of divine energy of the Holy Spirit operating within the soul by which we are regenerated
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4687
Citing in TDNT: 7:536, 1065

What is it not interesting that no man will see the Kingdom unless he be "born again"?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147995
12/06/12 02:36 PM
12/06/12 02:36 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Do you know what kind of bodies that angels have? Bases on what writing do you claim that there is no difference between unfallen angels and fallen angels? After his fall, Satan's appearance changed.

I meant before their fall. I said no physical difference could account for their fall. All of them were perfect. Why some sinned and some didn't? This cannot be explained physically. The cause of their sin was in their mind, not in their body.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #147999
12/06/12 04:17 PM
12/06/12 04:17 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

From what you have highlighted in the definitions above, it appears that you believe the "seed" the Bible speaks of is sperm, as in the physical agent in transmitting DNA. Is this correct?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #148000
12/06/12 04:55 PM
12/06/12 04:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
1. Did you read some of the quotes I gave above?
2. Do you believe God is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow?
3. How do you reconcile EGW quotes which say, "God destroys no man", and then you say, God executes sinners?

1. Yes. Thank you.
2. Yes.
3. As you know, Ellen also says Jesus will execute justice and punish sinners. Jesus does not destroy people, places, and things for the same reasons evil angels do. They do it to implicate the Father, to discredit Him. Jesus does it to vindicate law and justice and the love of God and for the good of all.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3}

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #148002
12/06/12 05:47 PM
12/06/12 05:47 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Do you know what kind of bodies that angels have? Bases on what writing do you claim that there is no difference between unfallen angels and fallen angels? After his fall, Satan's appearance changed.

I meant before their fall. I said no physical difference could account for their fall. All of them were perfect. Why some sinned and some didn't? This cannot be explained physically. The cause of their sin was in their mind, not in their body.
But - - what was their fall? WHEN did Eve sin? What part did the fruit play? And yes, I know all the quotes about the fruit in EGW. Was the fruit necessary for her to fall eat the fruit, or was her fall when she decided to eat the fruit? What if Adam showed, Eve had the fruit in her hand but had not eaten it, and Adam stops her from eating it. Had she sinned? From the Bible and EGW, the fall for Adam and Eve happened when she ate the fruit. No eating of the fruit, no fall. And what about the angels? Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness to the judgment of the great day. The interesting words are "first estate" and "own habitation". Habitation - 1. a dwelling place, habitation. a. of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit. Same implication for estate. They became sinners by transgression, and the transgression changed their physical being. And what are the works of the devil? 1 John 3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. I think we can see the works of the devil in the physical world.

EGW writes in The Great Controversy, page 569, the following: It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. What is Satan misrepresenting?
1) the character of God. We sure do see that, attributing the attributes of Satan to God!
2) the nature of sin. Well, I whole heartily agree, and is two ways, a) the consequences of sin and how they result, and b) what sin really is.
3) the real issues at stake in the great controversy. And that is a whole long topic in itself. We one focuses soley on the character of God, then they miss the fundamental issues that are at the root of the controversy.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Green Cochoa] #148003
12/06/12 06:10 PM
12/06/12 06:10 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

From what you have highlighted in the definitions above, it appears that you believe the "seed" the Bible speaks of is sperm, as in the physical agent in transmitting DNA. Is this correct?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
No, not sperm per se. I am saying genetic material. There are ways to transfer genetic material laterally. That is acquire genetic material after birth. A simple example, if you have the flu, and sneeze, or more sinisterly, put material with the virus on something that I ingest, and I come down with the same flu, I now have the genetic material from the virus in my body. I carry your sickness. (Genesis 3:15; 1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 8:17; Isaiah 53:3-4; Hebrews 1 & 2, Romans 5, 6, 7)


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #148004
12/06/12 07:12 PM
12/06/12 07:12 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
1. Did you read some of the quotes I gave above?
2. Do you believe God is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow?
3. How do you reconcile EGW quotes which say, "God destroys no man", and then you say, God executes sinners?

1. Yes. Thank you.
2. Yes.
3. As you know, Ellen also says Jesus will execute justice and punish sinners. Jesus does not destroy people, places, and things for the same reasons evil angels do. They do it to implicate the Father, to discredit Him. Jesus does it to vindicate law and justice and the love of God and for the good of all.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3}
Yes! But HOW does God execute justice? God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves. {YI, November 30, 1893 par. 6} God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. {COL 84.4} God repeatedly takes responsibility for that which He allows, that which he does not prevent, such as the fiery serpents. And better still, the whole story of Job.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #148005
12/06/12 08:55 PM
12/06/12 08:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
APL,

You seem to be very hung up on that idea, and probably nothing I say will dissuade you. But EGW is clear that sin has to do primarily with the mind. I don't know how selfishness is transmitted as an inheritance, but it is not transmitted only as an inheritance, so you can't say that it is primarily genetic. The influence of mind on mind is one of the main ways through which sin is transmitted.

The influence of mind on mind, so strong a power for good when sanctified, is equally strong for evil in the hands of those opposed to God. This power Satan used in his work of instilling evil into the minds of the angels, and he made it appear that he was seeking the good of the universe. . . . Cast out of heaven, Satan set up his kingdom in this world, and ever since, he has been untiringly striving to seduce human beings from their allegiance to God. He uses the same power that he used in heaven--the influence of mind on mind. Men become tempters of their fellow men. The strong, corrupting sentiments of Satan are cherished, and they exert a masterly, compelling power. {OHC 109.2}

In so deceptive a way did he [Lucifer] work that the sentiments that he inculcated could not be dealt with until they had developed in the minds of those who received them. {7BC 973.3}

To a large degree Satan has succeeded in the execution of his plans. Through the medium of influence, taking advantage of the action of mind on mind, he prevailed on Adam to sin. Thus at its very source human nature was corrupted. And ever since then sin has continued its hateful work, reaching from mind to mind. Every sin committed awakens the echoes of the original sin. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 5}

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #148006
12/06/12 09:00 PM
12/06/12 09:00 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

From what you have highlighted in the definitions above, it appears that you believe the "seed" the Bible speaks of is sperm, as in the physical agent in transmitting DNA. Is this correct?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
No, not sperm per se. I am saying genetic material. There are ways to transfer genetic material laterally. That is acquire genetic material after birth. A simple example, if you have the flu, and sneeze, or more sinisterly, put material with the virus on something that I ingest, and I come down with the same flu, I now have the genetic material from the virus in my body. I carry your sickness. (Genesis 3:15; 1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 8:17; Isaiah 53:3-4; Hebrews 1 & 2, Romans 5, 6, 7)

So did the devil sneeze on us? (Maybe the serpent spit on the fruit that Adam and Eve ate?) Is "sin" transmitted in the viral RNA?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Green Cochoa] #148008
12/06/12 11:55 PM
12/06/12 11:55 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

From what you have highlighted in the definitions above, it appears that you believe the "seed" the Bible speaks of is sperm, as in the physical agent in transmitting DNA. Is this correct?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
No, not sperm per se. I am saying genetic material. There are ways to transfer genetic material laterally. That is acquire genetic material after birth. A simple example, if you have the flu, and sneeze, or more sinisterly, put material with the virus on something that I ingest, and I come down with the same flu, I now have the genetic material from the virus in my body. I carry your sickness. (Genesis 3:15; 1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 8:17; Isaiah 53:3-4; Hebrews 1 & 2, Romans 5, 6, 7)

So did the devil sneeze on us? (Maybe the serpent spit on the fruit that Adam and Eve ate?) Is "sin" transmitted in the viral RNA?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
I'm quoting the Bible.

There is foreign DNA in our genome, and it is even called by evolutionists, "selfish DNA", their words. And it causes all sorts of disease.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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