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Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148273
12/18/12 04:18 PM
12/18/12 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
In order to serve God acceptably, we must be "born again." Our natural dispositions, which are in opposition to the Spirit of God, must be put away. We must be made new men and women in Christ Jesus. Our old, unrenewed lives must give place to a new life--a life full of love, of trust, of willing obedience. Think you that such a change is not necessary for entrance into the kingdom of God? Listen to the words of the Majesty of heaven: "Ye must be born again" (John 3:7). "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3). {YRP 24.2}

This passage makes it clear that people who are born again, converted (here the two words are used interchangeably) do not ignorantly retain some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth. The following passages confirm this point:

Quote:
“We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.” (5T 47) “Christ will come into the heart and abide there if you will but cleanse the soul temple of every defilement.” (ST 11-30-1888) “The heart must be emptied of every defilement, and cleansed for the indwelling of the Spirit.” (FLB 333) “We must empty the soul temple of every defilement, and let the Spirit of God take full possession of the heart, that the character may be transformed.” (RH 4-26-1892)

“The renewed heart will have no plants of selfishness to cultivate.” (RH 5-5-1896) “He who abides in Christ, and has Christ abiding in his heart by faith, cannot retain the same unlovely traits of character as were made manifest in his life before he had a connection with Christ.” (ST 8-21-1893) “If we are doers of the word of God, we shall understand that we cannot retain any sinful habit, or indulge in any crooked or guileful way.” (ST 12-25-1893)

“If we would become Christians, we cannot retain our natural habits, and hold fast to the weakness of our character that dishonors our Saviour.” (YI 9-14-1893) “The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on ‘kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.’” (SD 300) “When we are born from above, the same mind will be in us that was in Jesus, the mind that led Him to humble Himself that we might be saved.” (DA 330)

“The sinful nature is to be kept under the control of the Spirit of God.” (16 SpTB 18) “He did not leave us to retain our defects and deformities of character, or to serve Him as best we could in the corruption of our sinful nature.” (RH 3-18-1902) “Human nature is vile, and man’s character must be changed before it can harmonize with the pure and holy in God’s immortal kingdom. This transformation is the new birth. If man by faith takes hold of the divine love of God, he becomes a new creature through Christ Jesus. The world is overcome, human nature is subdued, and Satan is vanquished.” (2SP 133)

“It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ’s nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression.” (UL 18) “If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God’s law.” (AA 563)

“Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ.” (RH 4-12-1892) “The evils of fashionable society have a tendency to corrupt, but every true follower of Christ, every one who has ‘this hope in him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure,’ so that not a taint of defilement will be found in his thoughts, or upon his lips, in his heart, or in his character.” (16 SpTB 5)

The passages posted above paint a picture of what can only be described as - True, genuine, thorough conversion. No cultivated sinful habit is retained to be confessed and crucified later on.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Rosangela] #148284
12/19/12 08:45 PM
12/19/12 08:45 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
and to defend that point you have to adjust your own whole system of beliefs
Is it possible he is defending his book instead?

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148285
12/19/12 08:58 PM
12/19/12 08:58 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
People who complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. People who experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in God's appointed way do not ignorantly retain and practice some of the sins they cultivated prior to completing the long, patient, protracted process of conversion. People who are in the midst of converting are just as saved as people who have completed the process.


Quote:
People are considered "converted" when they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. They experience rebirth during the process of converting.


Quote:
Jesus revealed present truth to Ellen White. But we cannot say it is a sin to live in harmony with truths revealed in the Bible. For example, Jesus permits a flesh food diet in the Bible, but through Ellen White He admonishes people to leave it off if their circumstances make it possible (plenty of vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, legumes).


Quote:
The passages I posted above make it abundantly clear true, genuine, thorough conversion (as opposed to half conversions) results in people living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Ellen White is very adamant about thoroughly indoctrinating people before consenting to baptize them and allowing them to join the SDA Church. She gives specific instruction on the best course to pursue, which doctrines to begin with and which ones to end with. Baptismal candidates must manifest the tell-tale signs of true, genuine, thorough conversion - they understand everything Jesus commanded, they are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

This does seem like a convoluted jumbled mess.

Ok, first you have conversion is a process, a process to complete.

Saved people may not have been completely converted.

Rebirth is only part of the process of conversion.

Only those who live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded have genuine, thorough conversion.

Ellen White's present truth on health laws are not in harmony with and/or not part of what Jesus commands.



Hmmmmm... I think Rosangela might have said something worthy of consideration.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: kland] #148291
12/20/12 05:17 PM
12/20/12 05:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kland
Ellen White's present truth on health laws are not in harmony with and/or not part of what Jesus commands.

Do you believe it is a sin to eat in accordance with the dietary laws in the Bible?

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148292
12/20/12 05:18 PM
12/20/12 05:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Kland, it is probably safe to say you disagree with the view I have been advocating. Simply disagreeing with me, however, isn't as constructive as you sharing what you believe. What do you believe? What is the truth about the long, patient, protracted process of conversion. Please share what you believe. Thank you.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148293
12/20/12 06:03 PM
12/20/12 06:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Here's an example of how Ellen White uses the word "converted" in two different ways:

Quote:
The disciples that Jesus called were uneducated, and were far from being perfect in character when Jesus united them with Himself; but they were willing to learn from the greatest Teacher the world ever knew. They were truly converted men, and became the new bottles into which Jesus could pour the new wine of His kingdom. But though they were converted to Christ, yet, because of their limited earthly comprehension--the result of the teaching they had had from the Jews--they were unable fully to understand the spiritual nature of the truth He could impart. The burden of His instruction was the necessity of His followers having pure and holy hearts, for holiness alone would fit them to become subjects of His heavenly kingdom. {LHU 259.3}

In the passage posted above she says the disciples, including Peter, were "truly converted". But in the passage posted below she says Peter was "converted" after he thrice denied Jesus:

Quote:
Those present who remembered the part that Peter had acted at the trial of his Master, flattered themselves that he could now be intimidated by the threat of imprisonment and death. But the Peter who denied Christ in the hour of His greatest need was impulsive and self-confident, differing widely from the Peter who was brought before the Sanhedrin for examination. Since his fall he had been converted. He was no longer proud and boastful, but modest and self-distrustful. He was filled with the Holy Spirit, and by the help of this power he was resolved to remove the stain of his apostasy by honoring the name he had once disowned. {AA 62.3}

Jesus referred to Peter's conversion as a future event. "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." (Luke 22:32) So, as you can see, Ellen White used the word "converted" in two different ways.

Conversion is the result of thorough indoctrination. "Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee." (Psalm 51:13) "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matthew 13:15) The steps are 1) teach, 2) understand, and 3) converted.

Quote:
The Lord wants you and your family to be Christians in every sense of the word and to show in your characters the sanctifying power of the truth. If you had formed such characters, your works would stand the test of the judgment; should the fires of the last day kindle upon your works as they now are, they would prove to be only hay, wood, and stubble. Do not think this severe; it is true. Self has been mingled with all your labors. Will you come up to the high standard? It will be like learning the first principles of what constitutes a Christian character. Christ said to the apostle Peter: "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." You, likewise, must be converted before you can do acceptable work for the Master. {5T 570.2}

In the passage posted above, she is addressing a leading brother and his wife. She first describes a true convert and then implores them to conform, to be thus converted. The following passage is the description of a truly converted person she described:

Quote:
The truth as it is in Jesus does much for the receiver, and not only for him, but for all who are brought within the sphere of his influence. The truly converted soul is illuminated from on high, and Christ is in that soul "a well of water springing up into everlasting life." His words, his motives, his actions, may be misinterpreted and falsified; but he does not mind it because he has greater interests at stake. He does not consider present convenience; he is not ambitious for display; he does not crave the praise of men. His hope is in heaven, and he keeps straight on, with his eye fixed on Jesus. He does right because it is right, and because only those who do right will have an entrance into the kingdom of God. He is kind and humble, and thoughtful of others' happiness. He never says, "Am I my brother's keeper?" but he loves his neighbor as himself. His manner is not harsh and dictatorial, like that of the godless; but he reflects light from heaven upon men. He is a true, bold soldier of the cross of Christ, holding forth the word of life. As he gains in influence, prejudice against him dies away, his piety is acknowledged, and his Bible principles are respected. {5T 569.1}

Thus it is with everyone who is truly converted. He bears precious fruit, and in so doing walks as Christ walked, talks as He talked, works as He worked, and the truth as it is in Jesus, through him, makes an impression in his home, in his neighborhood, and in the church. He is building a character for eternity, while working out his own salvation with fear and trembling. He is exemplifying before the world the valuable principles of truth, showing what the truth will do for the life and character of the genuine believer. He is unconsciously acting his part in the sublime work of Christ in the redemption of the world, a work which, in its character and influence, is far-reaching, undermining the foundation of false religion and false science. {5T 569.2}

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148297
12/20/12 09:55 PM
12/20/12 09:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
In the passage posted above she says the disciples, including Peter, were "truly converted". But in the passage posted below she says Peter was "converted" after he thrice denied Jesus. ...
So, as you can see, Ellen White used the word "converted" in two different ways.
Conversion is the result of thorough indoctrination.

?
So, before Peter denied Christ he wasn't thoroughly indoctrinated, but he was thoroughly indoctrinated a few hours later?

Quote:
The following passage is the description of a truly converted person she described

What are the EGW passages which say that only thoroughly indoctrinated people can be converted?

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148298
12/21/12 01:42 AM
12/21/12 01:42 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
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Quick peek...

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
In the passage posted above she says the disciples, including Peter, were "truly converted". But in the passage posted below she says Peter was "converted" after he thrice denied Jesus:
...
So, as you can see, Ellen White used the word "converted" in two different ways.

Conversion is the result of thorough indoctrination.

How about when Peter received the vision of the sheet of animals? Was he converted before he got the vision? This was well after he was brought before the Sanhedrin for examination.

But we are told that this vision gave Peter important doctrines that he didn't believe previously. He was not yet fully indoctrinated.

This vision conveyed to Peter both reproof and instruction. It revealed to him the purpose of God--that by the death of Christ the Gentiles should be made fellow heirs with the Jews to the blessings of salvation. As yet none of the disciples had preached the gospel to the Gentiles. In their minds the middle wall of partition, broken down by the death of Christ, still existed, and their labors had been confined to the Jews, for they had looked upon the Gentiles as excluded from the blessings of the gospel. Now the Lord was seeking to teach Peter the world-wide extent of the divine plan. {AA 135.3}

How carefully the Lord worked to overcome the prejudice against the Gentiles that had been so firmly fixed in Peter's mind by his Jewish training! By the vision of the sheet and its contents He sought to divest the apostle's mind of this prejudice and to teach the important truth that in heaven there is no respect of persons; that Jew and Gentile are alike precious in God's sight; that through Christ the heathen may be made partakers of the blessings and privileges of the gospel. {AA 136.3}


So, we saw that EGW could have had two different types of conversion in mind. (However, I believe it is much more likely that it was a quantitative difference, not qualitative; it was a deepening on his conversion, rather than a new kind of conversion.) Did this vision prompt a third type of conversion, where Peter was thoroughly indoctrinated?

And since we are thinking about this vision, we remember that Cornelius was baptized after an abbreviated sermon from Peter. Was Cornelius baptized while unconverted? Or was he thoroughly indoctrinated after Peter's 2-minute sermon?

We have seen several inspired texts that tell us converted people can be ignorant of some very fundamental truths, such as the Sabbath, the universal reach of Christ's sacrifice and grace, the murderous effects of poor health habits.

I can see how learning new things from God can be considered conversion - changing from error to truth. In that sense, we should be experiencing continual conversion.

However, this is not the conversion that is most critical at this time. You have admitted that Luther, who was not fully indoctrinated (though it is hard to imagine that in all his Bible studies, he never ran across any verse that specifies the seventh day as God's Sabbath), will be in heaven. Obviously, thorough indoctrination, though helpful and very nice, is not a requirement for eternal life.

But we would be foolish to say that "conversion" is not a requirement for eternal life. Hence, in answer to the question, "What must I do to gain eternal life?" there is a conversion that is required, and a conversion that is optional. You admit that your "conversion is the result of thorough indoctrination" is optional. The conversion that we are trying to explain to you is the kind that is required. This is the conversion that we need to focus our greatest efforts upon.

I have met many who are thoroughly indoctrinated. And if you are not quite as indoctrinated as they are, they will persecute you with no mercy. They need to experience the important conversion.

Auf wiedersehen once again (for now)...

Last edited by asygo; 12/21/12 05:11 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148301
12/21/12 03:26 PM
12/21/12 03:26 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Kland
Ellen White's present truth on health laws are not in harmony with and/or not part of what Jesus commands.

Do you believe it is a sin to eat in accordance with the dietary laws in the Bible?

I believe it is a sin not to eat in accordance to what Jesus commands.


Quote:
Simply disagreeing with me, however, isn't as constructive as you sharing what you believe. What do you believe? What is the truth about the long, patient, protracted process of conversion. Please share what you believe.

If I said people are not truly converted until they are completely converted, that it is a long process, and we will not finish it on this earth, but some people have been converted, and some people will be saved who are not converted, but we must be truly converted to be saved, would you really know what I believe?

So I don't understand what you believe? Maybe you could start out with defining the word, "conversion". Your definition, seems to be different than what the others have.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Rosangela] #148304
12/21/12 03:36 PM
12/21/12 03:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
In the passage posted above she says the disciples, including Peter, were "truly converted". But in the passage posted below she says Peter was "converted" after he thrice denied Jesus. ...
So, as you can see, Ellen White used the word "converted" in two different ways.
Conversion is the result of thorough indoctrination.

?
So, before Peter denied Christ he wasn't thoroughly indoctrinated, but he was thoroughly indoctrinated a few hours later?

Quote:
The following passage is the description of a truly converted person she described

What are the EGW passages which say that only thoroughly indoctrinated people can be converted?

That's the point. Ellen White uses the word "converted" in different ways. Many, many times throughout the SOP she begs seasoned members and leaders to experience thorough conversion. Otherwise, she warns them, they are in a lost state and will not go to heaven.

Peter was in the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. In one sense of the word, therefore, he was "converted". However, he completed the process of converting on the Day of Pentecost when he was baptized by the Holy Spirit. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

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