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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Johann] #148885
01/10/13 11:28 AM
01/10/13 11:28 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
Did He have sin in His body?

Are you thinking in the terms of Gnosticism? Or how?

APL's view, pastor Johann, is that sin is a physical element in our bodies which physically causes disease and death.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #148886
01/10/13 11:33 AM
01/10/13 11:33 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
It is interesting if you read where she was quoting from, you find the following in the same paragraph: "Death entered the world because of transgression." {FLB 179.5}. Death entered the world because of transgression. Are we to believe that because of transgression, God is now required to violate His law and kill? Is that why death entered with sin? No. Sin is the cause of all sickness and death. That is why sin is so horrendous.

The cause of death is man's debarment from the tree of life. This is simple, APL.

In the midst of Eden grew the tree of life, whose fruit had the power of perpetuating life. Had Adam remained obedient to God, he would have continued to enjoy free access to this tree and would have lived forever. But when he sinned he was cut off from partaking of the tree of life, and he became subject to death. The divine sentence, "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," points to the utter extinction of life. Immortality, promised to man on condition of obedience, had been forfeited by transgression. Adam could not transmit to his posterity that which he did not possess; and there could have been no hope for the fallen race had not God, by the sacrifice of His Son, brought immortality within their reach (GC 532, 533).

Here it is also explained why Adam's posterity dies - because Adam couldn't transmit life to his descendants.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #148887
01/10/13 01:09 PM
01/10/13 01:09 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green
But who or what had killed all those innocent lambs before? Their own sins? Did they self-destruct on account of the poison of the sins placed upon their heads? Did the conferrance of those sins kill them? Or was it the knife of another being that brought them to an early demise? And how was it with Jesus? Was it His own sins that destroyed Him? Did He self-destruct on account of the sins placed upon His head? Did those sins kill Him? Or was it at the hand of another that He died?

Contemplate these themes.
Who killed the lambs of the sacrifice? Did God? No. Sinners did.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #148888
01/10/13 01:14 PM
01/10/13 01:14 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
It is interesting if you read where she was quoting from, you find the following in the same paragraph: "Death entered the world because of transgression." {FLB 179.5}. Death entered the world because of transgression. Are we to believe that because of transgression, God is now required to violate His law and kill? Is that why death entered with sin? No. Sin is the cause of all sickness and death. That is why sin is so horrendous.

The cause of death is man's debarment from the tree of life. This is simple, APL.

In the midst of Eden grew the tree of life, whose fruit had the power of perpetuating life. Had Adam remained obedient to God, he would have continued to enjoy free access to this tree and would have lived forever. But when he sinned he was cut off from partaking of the tree of life, and he became subject to death. The divine sentence, "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," points to the utter extinction of life. Immortality, promised to man on condition of obedience, had been forfeited by transgression. Adam could not transmit to his posterity that which he did not possess; and there could have been no hope for the fallen race had not God, by the sacrifice of His Son, brought immortality within their reach (GC 532, 533).

Here it is also explained why Adam's posterity dies - because Adam couldn't transmit life to his descendants.
I know this quote well. And what it is saying is that ALL humanity was condemned to die because of the sin of one man. Read Romans 5. Start with verse 12. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: A new born child needs a savior. Why? A new born does not have a legal problem, right?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #148889
01/10/13 01:49 PM
01/10/13 01:49 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Quote:
Did He have sin in His body?

What do the scriptures say?

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

And how do you reconcile this with John 14:30, which you had quoted: “For the prince of this world comes, and he has nothing in me”? If He had sin in His body, how is it that He had nothing from Satan in Him?
Rosangela, are you denying the scriptures? I hope not.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8. It is the devil's works that cause temptation. Christ had nothing left in Him that would respond to the devil's temptation. Christ developed a perfect character.

Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foot-hold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of himself, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." The storms of temptation burst upon him, but they could not cause him to swerve from his allegiance to God. {RH, November 8, 1887 par. 8}

In His life on earth, Christ developed a perfect character, He rendered perfect obedience to His Father's commandments. In coming to the world in human form, in becoming subject to the law, in revealing to men that He bore their sickness, their sorrow, their guilt, He did not become a sinner. Before the Pharisees He could say, "Which of you convinceth me of sin?" Not one stain of sin was found upon Him. He stood before the world the spotless Lamb of God.--The Youth's Instructor, Dec. 29, 1898. {3SM 133.3}

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. [we can not be legally pardoned - we need to be "born again"] He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}

Read R&H October 22 and 29, 1895. Too much to quote.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #148893
01/10/13 03:14 PM
01/10/13 03:14 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
I know this quote well. And what it is saying is that ALL humanity was condemned to die because of the sin of one man.

Of course. Adam couldn't transmit to them eternal life, so they were condemned to die. Adam also transmitted to them a sinful nature, so they are born sinners.

Quote:
A new born child needs a savior. Why? A new born does not have a legal problem, right?

A child is born as a transgressor of the law - with an imperfect character, not loving God supremely and not loving his neighbors as himself.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #148894
01/10/13 03:15 PM
01/10/13 03:15 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I have an appointment now. More later.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Green Cochoa] #148895
01/10/13 04:48 PM
01/10/13 04:48 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Are we to believe that because of transgression, God is now required to violate His law and kill?

It is not against God's law to kill.

If it is against the law to kill, it should be against the law to command someone to kill. If it is against the law to command someone to kill, it should be against the law to approve of killing. If it is against the law to approve of killing, it should be against the law to bless one who kills for having done so.

In all these cases, God would have gone against His own law already. So, it can only be that it is not against the law to kill.

What is against the law? Murder. Murder does not equal kill. The Bible outlines the distinctions for those who have an ear to hear.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
If as you say, there is lawful killing, is there also lawful stealing? Lawful lying? Lawful adultery? Webster’s Third New International Dictionary defines “murder” in this way: “To kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice or willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully.”

So total is the revelation of God’s character as given by Christ that “All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son” {8T-286}.
There is not a single reason for doubting these statements. Jesus confirmed the truth of it in His words to Philip, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” John 14:9.

Originally Posted By: From the book, As He Is:

In human minds there is a distinction between lawful and unlawful killing. There are three situations at least in which people regard it as being lawful to kill another human being.

At any time if the slayer can prove that he or she was forced to kill his or her attacker in order to save his or her own life, the slayer will be judged a killer within the bounds of the law and will be set free.

The second situation in which killing is judged to be lawful is when a person has been tried and found guilty of taking human life. The state then claims every right to take that person’s life in return. This, they say, is lawful killing.

The third is when an alien army invades the borders. People regard it as being perfectly lawful, necessary, and expedient to slaughter as many of the enemy as necessary to prevent the invasion from being successful.

Human beings of every nation on earth throughout human history accept these as working principles. To most people’s minds, not only are these guidelines right but they are the only solution to the problems involved in these situations. They firmly believe they can do it this way and still be keepers of the law. In fact, high honors are heaped upon military personnel in war who can destroy the most.

To ensure that people never weaken in these convictions, the whole educational system, built up under Satan’s direction, is geared to systematically, continually, and persistently reiterate these ideas. Never in history has Satan been better equipped to do so than in this age. Now he has at his command not just the verbal storyteller, the limit of his facilities in the beginning, but the stupendous volume of cheap novels, radio, movie theaters, and now most present and insistent of all teachers, the television screen.

As people sit before these media, they think they are being harmlessly entertained, but in actual truth they are being thoroughly educated in Satan’s doctrines. With every appreciative viewing of the usual television story, the watcher is more firmly entrenched in erroneous notions of God’s character.

This is made apparent as soon as a candid analysis of the message of the movie is conducted. Here is the typical plot. It is found with minor variations in western, detective, police, military, espionage, and other tales. The message is always that the law must be broken in order to uphold it.

The film introduces the watcher to a segment of society. Maybe it is a ranch family or a small town in the West or a town or farmhouse in the case of a war story.

Care is taken to show this capsule of humanity as a clean, respectable, law-abiding group of people. There is love, trust, and cooperation between them. A little friction may intrude at times, but that is purely incidental and designed to show that they are not super-humans but everyday folk just like the viewers. The viewing audience has no difficulty in identifying with the people on the screen. A sense of fellowship and brotherhood is established.

Then the lawbreaker is introduced. In westerns he appears as a dark man clad in black clothes, riding a black horse, and armed with black guns. With him is a gang of men who look like their leader. They are hard-faced, tough, callous, and ruthless, with a total disregard for human life. Any who stand in their way, great or small, are simply gunned down. They achieve their ends by lying, stealing, and killing.

As they direct their attacks against the happy segment of society previously introduced, the audience is apprehensive and indignant, even more so as the victims are powerless to protect themselves from the desperadoes. Every instinct and desire of the audience clamors for the punishment of the outlaws.

Up until this point the universal problem of humanity has been presented with truthful accuracy. The people of this world, generally speaking, are, on the surface, law-abiding people. They are good neighbors; they help each other and live clean lives. They are pictured by the ranch or village as the case may be in our film illustration.

Just as those people are threatened by a desperado and his gang, so today, the world lies under the threat of Satan and his followers. Humanity is entirely unable to rescue itself from the power of the devil and his angels.

Thus Satan has presented the problem of the human family in a truly accurate form. As a problem requires a solution, one is offered in every film. In the western it is the arrival of a lone champion on a beautiful white horse. In contrast to the robber, he is dressed in white clothes, has a handsome, open face, carries white guns, and is stirred to the depths as he realizes the plight of the oppressed. Alone and unassisted, at any sacrifice even to life itself, he pledges to set them free and to relieve the earth forever from the scourge of the terrorist. For his services he seeks neither fame nor reward. He does it as a mission, his only motivation being that of dedicated service.

So far in the story there is the continued portrayal of the truth, for just as the solution to the film is found in the advent of a champion of self-sacrificing spirit and character, so Jesus Christ came in that way to redeem humankind. Like the hero in the story, His soul was stirred with indignation as He beheld the predicament of humanity, and He resolved that He would save them, no matter what the cost. He would not do it for price nor reward but only from the motivation of love and mercy.

The great white hero with his pearl-handled guns rides forth on his white charger to deal with the liars, thieves, and murderers. But in order to outwit the liars, he lies; to catch the thieves, he steals, for if he suddenly needs a horse, saddle, or rifle, he will simply help himself to another person’s; and to end the murderous reign of the killers, he kills.

When he is finished, the lawbreaking is ended. The law has been upheld. But the message of the film has been that in order to achieve this, the law had to be broken. Only by lying, stealing, and killing could lying, stealing, and killing be brought to an end. The law had to be broken in order to ensure that it was kept. This is Satan’s message. He does not say that the law is wholly bad and should be entirely done away with. He admits that under certain circumstances it is good and should be obeyed. But he continues that the law is not perfect for there are situations where it must be disobeyed in order to solve the problems arising.

Both evil people and their master, the devil, want a law. They want it composed so that it protects them from other people but not other people from them. It is impossible to have such a law for every person. But it is possible for a privileged class to have it at the expense of the masses.

Such, then, is the message contained in Satan’s educational program. In his classrooms there is no dissent. When the hero lies, steals, and murders, the viewers applaud. They honor him for what he has done and consider him very smart to use such weapons in his campaign.

To them the villain was unlawfully lying, stealing and killing, whereas the hero was doing it lawfully. Therefore, the villain was a criminal, but the hero was not.

Why do people take such an attitude toward this problem? There is a very real psychological reason for it. As noted above, every person consciously or subconsciously longs to be in the position where they are protected by law but do not have to keep it themselves.

Such is Satan’s and, in turn, humanity’s magnification of the law that states “Thou shalt not kill, lie, or steal.” We know that it is of the devil because such a philosophy finds no place in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Having examined the magnification of the law as set forth by the devil, the time has come to consider its enlargement as presented by Jesus Christ. Without doubt or question, we know that it will be the truth, for Christ is the very fountain of truth.

Jesus showed that there is no such thing as lawful and unlawful lying, stealing, and killing. He lived His whole life upon this earth devoted to ending all such things. Yet, in order to accomplish that, He never once lied, stole, or killed.

Under every circumstance, every possible pressure, threat, or danger, Jesus told only the truth, respected the property of all, and took the lives of none.

In doing so He demonstrated forever how we are to keep that law and how, in turn, the Father and He keep that law. He showed that when God said in a few simple words, “Thou shalt not lie, steal, or kill,” He did not add provisos and exceptions. No matter what the circumstances, pressures, dangers, threats, needs, or any other seeming justification for breaking those commands might be, the words were still “Thou shalt not...” No distinction whatever exists in God’s mind between lawful and unlawful killing. With God there is only unlawful killing.

God has spoken in His Word, saying, “The law of the LORD is perfect” (Psalms 19:7). It could, of course, be none other than this, seeing that it is the transcript of the character of the Eternal. He is perfection in the absolute sense. Therefore, His law is likewise perfect.

Such perfection does not mean that it is the perfect answer for certain situations but needs to be modified or even abrogated to suit other situations. On the contrary, it means that no matter what circumstance, situation, or pressure may arise the law is still the one and only code for perfect behavior.

When any person claims that it is lawful to kill when the commandments so distinctly say, “Thou shalt not kill,” is in that moment saying that the law, and the God of that law, is imperfect, less than infinite, and therefore less than God. It is also to deny the whole witness of Christ’s ministry. It is to declare the truth of God a lie.

The point which the devil is bent on making is that the law must be broken in order for it to be maintained. The life and teachings of Christ deny this. So does the message of God in the Old Testament.

There is the story of two people who adopted the policy of breaking the law in order to ensure that it be kept. It is the story of Jacob and his mother in their quest for the promised birthright. Before the birth of the two children, God, foreseeing with infinite accuracy the character of each, declared that Jacob should have the birthright instead of the elder son, Esau.

And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger” (Genesis 25:23).

Rebekah clearly and correctly understood that the last sentence in this verse was a promise to Jacob that the birthright should be his, not Esau’s. Rebekah remembered the words of the angel, and she read with clearer insight than did her husband the character of their sons. She was convinced that the heritage of divine promise was intended for Jacob. She repeated to Isaac the angel’s words, but his affections were centered upon his elder son, and he was unshaken in his purpose.

Jacob had learned from his mother of the divine intimation that the birthright should fall to him, and he was filled with an unspeakable desire for the privileges which it would confer (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 178).

God’s selection of Jacob to inherit the birthright was not an arbitrary one. The directions given by God were done so on the foreknowledge that Esau would disqualify himself from the right to its possession. Without question, Isaac should have accepted the decree made on this basis, especially when Esau’s behavior confirmed the rightness of God’s decision. The law stipulated that should a young man marry among the heathen then he automatically forfeited all right to the birthright. This Esau had done polygamously, to make matters worse. “When Esau was forty years old, he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. And they were a grief of mind to Isaac and Rebekah” (Genesis 26:34-35).

Upon Esau’s doing this, Isaac, in strict obedience to the law, ought to have relinquished his paternal preferences for his elder son and prepared to confer the birthright blessing on Jacob. But he allowed his affections to overrule his conscience so that he chose his own way in preference to the clear will of God.

Rebekah exerted all the influence she could to dissuade him from his fixed determination to confer the birthright blessing on Esau. She pointed out the disinterest in, and disregard, for the spiritual responsibilities involved in the birthright, which marked Esau’s life. She reminded him of the prophecy made before the boys were born and of Esau’s marriage to the heathen. She pointed to the contrasting spirit, attitude, and consecrated life of Jacob, but all her reasoning and pleadings were to no avail.

The only thing she did achieve was a deferment of the day when the blessing was to be bestowed. But as the infirmities of age advanced on Isaac, he realized that if he did not pronounce the blessing soon it would be too late. He determined on a secret session rather than the joyous family affair that was the usual way. He called Esau and instructed him to take his weapons and catch his favorite venison. They would have a little feast together after which the son would receive the prized blessing. It is to be noted that Esau’s interest lay in the material blessing, for the spiritual had no attraction for him. Rebekah was listening in as the supposedly secret instructions were being given, and with a chill in her heart, she realized the implications of what her husband was about to do.

Rebekah divined his purpose. She was confident that it was contrary to what God had revealed as His will. Isaac was in danger of incurring the divine displeasure and of debarring his younger son from the position to which God had called him. She had in vain tried the effect of reasoning with Isaac, and she determined to resort to stratagem {Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 180}.

With great clarity she saw that Isaac was about to act in direct opposition to the stipulations of the law, thereby incurring Divine displeasure. She saw that by so doing Jacob would be deprived of the blessing that was rightfully his. Therefore, she reasoned, she must prevent Isaac from breaking the law, both for his own good and for the good of Jacob.

She had worked hard for years to forestall such an action by appealing to Isaac. That had proved unsuccessful, so she reasoned that she now had to use other means.

To what method did she turn?

In order to save Isaac from being a lawbreaker, she became a lawbreaker herself and induced Jacob to become one with her. They turned from God’s way to their way. They acted out the same principles, or lack of them, as portrayed by the heroes of the silver screen, the novel, or any other form of fiction. It was an evil sowing that brought them a bitter reaping even though they achieved their objective to a point. Jacob did obtain the spiritual blessing, but the material wealth and power fell into Esau’s hands just the same.

Jacob and Rebekah succeeded in their purpose, but they gained only trouble and sorrow by their deception. God had declared that Jacob should receive the birthright, and His word would have been fulfilled in His own time had they waited in faith for Him to work for them. But like many who now profess to be children of God, they were unwilling to leave the matter in His hands. Rebekah bitterly repented the wrong counsel she had given her son; it was the means of separating him from her, and she never saw his face again. From the hour when he received the birthright, Jacob was weighed down with self-condemnation. He had sinned against his father, his brother, his own soul, and against God. In one short hour he had made work for a lifelong repentance. This scene was vivid before him in afteryears, when the wicked course of his own sons oppressed his soul {Ibid., emphasis added}.

Rebekah and Jacob broke the law in order to keep it from being broken. They were wholly wrong in so doing, as is proved by the sad punishment they had to bear for their mistake. Let not their mistake and its consequent troubles be of no value to those of us facing the final confrontation over what the law really means. Let it be that we shall see with great clarity that the law cannot be upheld by its being broken.

The words, “Thou shalt not bear false witness, steal, or kill,” set forth the pattern of behavior no matter what the circumstances, pressures, threats, demands, necessities, advantages, or whatever else it may be. In God’s kingdom and under His principles, the end can never, never, never justify the means. Therefore, in every situation, the law, and not expedience, is to be consulted and obeyed. When God has a people who will stand by these principles and be guided in this way, He will have a people whom He can trust to finish the work, and it will then be finished.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #148897
01/10/13 05:21 PM
01/10/13 05:21 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
I know this quote well. And what it is saying is that ALL humanity was condemned to die because of the sin of one man.

Of course. Adam couldn't transmit to them eternal life, so they were condemned to die. Adam also transmitted to them a sinful nature, so they are born sinners.

Quote:
A new born child needs a savior. Why? A new born does not have a legal problem, right?

A child is born as a transgressor of the law - with an imperfect character, not loving God supremely and not loving his neighbors as himself.
BINGO. It is not a legal problem. It is a real problem. Born that way. It is genetic...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #148898
01/10/13 07:31 PM
01/10/13 07:31 PM
Johann  Offline
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Legal justification has been associated with the teachings of the pharisees, and therefore not effective for eternal salvation. Right?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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