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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Johann] #149335
01/30/13 09:24 PM
01/30/13 09:24 PM
Johann  Offline
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Iceland
I do not see it very likely that creatures from unfallen worlds will be made kings and priests on this world made new.

It is important to read the whole text.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Johann] #149336
01/30/13 10:20 PM
01/30/13 10:20 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
SDABC on Rev. 5:10:

Quote:
10. Us. Textual evidence attests (cf. p. 10) the reading “them,” with reference to the redeemed of v. 9. The reading “us” was probably taken by the KJV translators from the Latin Vulgate. It is thus evident that in v. 10 the ones speaking do not specifically include themselves as “kings and priests.” It is not impossible, however, that they may be speaking of themselves in the third person, but this is not the natural conclusion to which the reading of the ancient manuscripts points. According to the preferred reading vs. 9, 10 may be translated as follows: “Thou art worthy to take the book and to open its seals, because thou wast slain and didst purchase to God by thy blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and didst make them to our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign upon the earth” (see below under “kings” and “we shall reign”). The kingdom is doubtless the spiritual kingdom of grace (see on Matt. 4:17; 5:3; Rev. 1:6).

Kings. Textual evidence favors (cf. p. 10) the reading “a kingdom” (see on ch. 1:6).

We shall reign. Textual evidence attests (cf. p. 10) the reading “they shall reign” (see above under “us”).


Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Rosangela] #149340
01/30/13 11:22 PM
01/30/13 11:22 PM
Johann  Offline
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Thank you Rosangela! This is another indication that with the KJV we might be on shaky ground. Another explanation why the young King James ordered his Bible translators not to let the wording of the new translation contradict the present doctrines of the Church of England.

Do we still have the freedom to accept one rendering or the other?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Johann] #149351
01/31/13 02:41 PM
01/31/13 02:41 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I've found a passage in which EGW refers to the "sons of God" of Job 1 as angels:

The Scriptures declare that upon one occasion, when the angels of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came also among them (Job 1:6), not to bow before the Eternal King, but to further his own malicious designs against the righteous. With the same object he is in attendance when men assemble for the worship of God. {DD 5.4}
So, can we infer that the angels, at least some of them, are required to present themselves before the Lord and are not always before the Lord? From reading Job, it appears that the sons of God only periodically present themselves before God. Kind of in a council meeting. If this means ALL the angels, it appears to be a problem. They aren't around God most of the time. If this means SOME of the angels, then why some? Are these some over the other worlds?

Is there anything that other created non-angel beings could be referred to as angels? Ellen White refers to the unfallen. But could she also include them with angels?

Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: kland] #149352
01/31/13 03:42 PM
01/31/13 03:42 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
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Michael the Arch angel is Jesus Christ Himself

Your thought in this area, kland, appeal to me.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: kland] #149354
01/31/13 05:53 PM
01/31/13 05:53 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
So, can we infer that the angels, at least some of them, are required to present themselves before the Lord and are not always before the Lord?

Since angels aren't omnipresent, the angels who work on earth can't be continually before the Lord - they certainly are in constant communication with God, but must present themselves before Him at intervals.

Quote:
Is there anything that other created non-angel beings could be referred to as angels? Ellen White refers to the unfallen. But could she also include them with angels?

Well, the most natural way to understand "angels" is as "angels." I find it improbable that the inhabitants of other worlds would be referred to as "angels," but I will not take a radical position on this.

Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Rosangela] #149360
02/01/13 02:06 PM
02/01/13 02:06 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I find it improbable that the inhabitants of other worlds would be referred to as "angels," but I will not take a radical position on this.


I share your thoughts


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Rosangela] #149363
02/01/13 02:19 PM
02/01/13 02:19 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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Posts: 25,122
Nova Scotia, Canada
Uriah Smith tells us who he thinks the 24 elders are:
Quote:
The Four and Twenty Elders.-- Who are these beings who surround the throne of glory? It will be observed that they are clothed in white raiment and have on their heads crowns of gold, which are tokens of both a conflict completed and a victory gained. From this we conclude that they were once participants in the Christian warfare, they once trod the earthly way with all saints; but they have been overcomers, and in advance of the great multitude of the redeemed, are wearing their victor crowns in the heavenly world. Indeed, they plainly tell us this in the song of praise which they ascribe to the Lamb: "They sung a new song, saying, Thou are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Rev_5:9. This song is sung before any of the events in the prophecy of the seven seals take place; for it is sung to set forth the worthiness of the Lamb to take the book and to open the seals, on the ground of what He had already accomplished--their redemption. It is not therefore thrown in here by anticipation, having its application in the future, but it expresses an absolute and finished fact in the history of those who sang it. These, then, were a class of redeemed persons--redeemed from this earth, redeemed as all others must be redeemed, by the precious blood of Christ.

Do we in any other place read of such a class of redeemed ones? We think Paul refers to the same company when he writes to the Ephesians thus: "Wherefore He saith, When He [Christ] ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." The marginal reading is He led a "multitude of captives." Eph_4:8. Going back to the events that occurred in connection with the crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ, we read: "The graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Mat_27:52-53. Thus the answer to our question comes unmistakably from the sacred page. These are some of those who came out of their graves at the resurrection of Christ, and who were numbered with the illustrious multitude which Jesus led up from the captivity of Death's dark domain when He ascended in triumph on high. Matthew records their resurrection, Paul their ascension, and John beholds them in heaven, performing the sacred duties which they were raised up to accomplish.

In this view we are not alone. John Wesley spoke as follows concerning the four and twenty elders: " 'Clothed in white raiment'--This and their golden crowns show that they had already finished their course, and taken their places among the citizens of heaven. They are never termed souls, and hence it is probable that they had glorified bodies already. Compare Mat_27:52." [1]

Particular attention must be given to the fact that the four and twenty elders are said to be seated on thrones. Our translation reads "seats;" but the Greek is {GREEK CHARACTERS IN PRINTED TEXT}, thronoi, thrones, the same word as is used three times in verses 2 and 3 and once in verse 4 immediately preceding. Thus the Revised Version reads "Round about the throne were four and twenty thrones, and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting." Consequently this passage throws light on the expressions found in Dan_7:9, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down." These are the same thrones, and as has been shown in comments upon that passage, the meaning is not that the thrones were overturned, or cast down, in the ordinary sense of that expression, but placed, or set. The figure is taken from the Eastern custom of placing mats or divans for distinguished guests to sit upon. These four and twenty elders (see comments on Revelation 5) are evidently assistants of Christ in His mediatorial work in the sanctuary on high. When the judgment scene described in Dan_7:9 began in the most holy place, their thrones were placed there, according to the testimony of that passage.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Daryl] #149364
02/01/13 02:36 PM
02/01/13 02:36 PM
Johann  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Without claiming that Uriah Smith was infallible, this is the view most Seventh-day Adventists have held in the past. I have still not discovered any reason why he was wrong in his understanding of the 24 elders.

I am still so old fashioned in my opinions that I do not accept such modern and liberal notions, neither about the 24 elders nor the male headship, as proclaimed by such youngsters among televangelists as Stephen Bohr nor others who think they have greater wisdom.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4? [Re: Johann] #149367
02/01/13 05:28 PM
02/01/13 05:28 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I see two problems with Smith's view: 1)the fact that it relies on the KJV rendering of Rev. 5:10, and 2) the fact that EGW refers to the 24 elders as "angels." But fortunately the identity of the 24 elders has no bearing on our salvation.

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