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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14952
07/11/05 04:50 AM
07/11/05 04:50 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! {DA 49.2}
quote:
Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. {DA 131.2}
quote:
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Christ would have laid down His life, you may estimate the value of a soul. {AG 175.2}
Risk is defined by Webster's as " possibility of loss or injury : PERIL" which EGW also uses in describing what Christ and God the Father did. There's nothing difficult to understand in the language.
All heaven was put into peril. That is, God risked everything. There was the real possibility of Christ being lost.
The reason I brought this up was in the context of God's planing and knowledge of the future. Because of Greek philosophy, it is often taken for granted that God sees the future as if it were a TV rerun. However, that's not the picture that inspiration presents.
There are many difficulties with the idea that the future is fixed. To name two, if this were the case, how could we be free? That is, our freedom would be imagined, not real. Secondly, this view would make it impossible for Christ to have failed. Risk implies that the future is not fixed, and not exhaustively knowable.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14953
07/11/05 05:49 AM
07/11/05 05:49 AM
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OP
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Excellent points, Tom
Part of the resistance to this understanding of God is the fear of "The Unpredictable"!
If we in anyway see that He is unpredictable by taking a real risk on us, then we fight it. It is a "comfort-zone" irritant, and violence is often incurred when anyone suggests that God lets go of His control in any circumstance.
That is resting our faith on our understanding of Him, a very dangerous and sandy spot to build any house on.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14954
07/12/05 03:34 AM
07/12/05 03:34 AM
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SDA
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John, when death is the only other option, as in the case of Ezekiel, do we really have a choice?
Phil, please feel free to restate my position, but try to do it without the derogatory adjectives. Is murder always pre-planned? I suppose in many cases it is, but I’m sure you would agree it can be spontaneous and unpremeditated, which, at least in human courts, carries a lesser punishment.
Tom, the prophecies do not indicate that Jesus might save us. They simply say that He will save us. But, even if Jesus had gone back home, instead of dying on the cross, He would not have been lost. True, God would have been forced to destroy all free moral agents throughout the universe, but Jesus would not have been lost Himself. Since saving us was voluntary in the first place, refusing to drink the cup would not have, technically speaking, constituted a failure.
Phil, if God doesn’t know the end from the beginning, like a rerun, how come He can tell us everything that will happen before it happens?
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14955
07/12/05 03:35 AM
07/12/05 03:35 AM
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SDA
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quote:
Do you think the lamblike beast is free not to make an image to the beast? free not to enforce the mark of the beast?
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14956
07/11/05 07:25 PM
07/11/05 07:25 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM: Tom, the prophecies do not indicate that Jesus might save us. They simply say that He will save us. But, even if Jesus had gone back home, instead of dying on the cross, He would not have been lost. True, God would have been forced to destroy all free moral agents throughout the universe, but Jesus would not have been lost Himself. Since saving us was voluntary in the first place, refusing to drink the cup would not have, technically speaking, constituted a failure. Tom: MM, it would have indeed constituted a failure because Christ would have been putting His own will above the will of His Father's. That God is not like this is the point of the whole Great Controversy. Plus remember that to Abraham God swore by Himself that Christ would succeed, since He could sware by nothing greater. So He put His throne on the line. Also note what the Spirit of Prophesy actually says: quote:
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Christ would have laid down His life, you may estimate the value of a soul. {AG 175.2}
"All heaven" was imperiled. How do you understand this MM? According to your way of seeing things, I don't see how any of heaven could possibly have been imperiled, let alone all of it.
Regarding the question of how God can say what will happen, there are a number of points to consider. First of all, one does not need to have exhaustive definate foreknowledge to predict what will happen, as we all know by experience. Secondly, God is able to influence things to happen, so even if He knew nothing of the future He could still predict it because He has the power to make anything happen that He chooses to make happen. So the fact that God can predict the future does not prove that He must see it in an exhaustive definate way in order to do so. In fact, if you look in Scripture to see the basis on which God exhalts His ability to predict the future you will see that He never mentions His ability to foresee it, but instead mentions His ability to bring it to pass. Thirdly God can and does see everything that will happen, but this vision of the future is not a simplistic T.V. rerun type of vision. It is a far more comprehensive vision which encompasses not only what will actually happen (which is in many cases yet to be determined) but what may happen.
A key question to keep in mind is who is it that determines the future? If God alone determines the future, then of course it is possible for Him to have exhaustive definite foreknowledge of it. However, if His creatures share in determining the future, then the future is not exhaustively definately knowable for the simple reason that it hasn't yet been determined. Not being determined implies not being exhaustably knowable. Conversely exhaustive definate foreknolwedge implies an exhaustively determined future, which implies that freedom is imaginary, not real.
I realise these concepts are a bit challenging to grasp, so am happy to provide explicit examples if requested.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14957
07/11/05 10:29 PM
07/11/05 10:29 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Hmm, lets see if ive got it together. Gods prophecies could rather be called promises. This however will make Phil and others uneasy becourse some of these prophesies/promises are for the recievers downfall. Some prophecies tell about death and destruction, if God makes it happen there seems to be two options. God brings destruction on those who refuse Him, or those infested with sin are so simpleminded and predictable that they simply cannot turn away a chance to bring destruction upon others as soon as Gods protection is withdrawn. Like predicting that the cat will come when the canopener is heard? Does this fit?
/Thomas
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14958
07/11/05 11:29 PM
07/11/05 11:29 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thomas, I think a question to ask is whether God's statements are prescriptive or proscriptive. I know what I want to say, but it's not so easy to say.
What I mean is, we may perceive God as doing things, like causing destruction to those who disobey Him, in which case His statements would be proscriptive. If you don't obey Me, then I will do such-and-such to you. Or we may view them as descriptions of what He, as the wise God who created us and knows us, knows will happen if we choose to disobey Him. This latter idea is what George Fifield presents in his links, and the idea that Phil, John B., myself (as well perhaps as some others) have been trying to present.
It's certainly not surprising that God would know precisely what will happen to us if we disobey Him. The chapter "The Destruction of Jerusalem" discusses the principles inovolved in detail.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14959
07/12/05 02:15 AM
07/12/05 02:15 AM
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OP
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil N. D'blanc:
" perhaps the Father would have sacrificed Jesus on an altar.
Whoa...This is not consistant with your pre-programmed concepts, MM Plus it's still a talisman of your visions of a very bloody pagan Father image. Sigh...but if you insist that the Father murdered Christ, that's your choice. Murder is pre-planned, correct?
You still have not explain EGW's meaning of "risk."
Please point out derogatory adjectives.
I see your opinions as very bloody,(I say your opinions, not you as a man) and hence very similar to pagan belief formulas.
Would you like me to list all of your many statements about blood, killing and the Father, or shall we attempt to study without being overly sensitive?
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14960
07/12/05 02:56 AM
07/12/05 02:56 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
John, when death is the only other option, as in the case of Ezekiel, do we really have a choice?
Yes, the Lord bids us “choose life”, and he is fighting for us to choose “life”; and he died so that we may choose “life”. And he has extended to us this “unnatural” life. This life is unnatural because life is unnatural to sin. Death is what sin is at heart. Were it not for the Lord’s longsuffering mercy, we would not be. And what I mean by that is, that his spirit, striving with us is holding back, dulling sinner’s wrath.
So to think of Ezekiel as having been threatened is out of perspective. Ezekiel needed salvation, just as much as everyone else. So, all that will have life must certainly live it. So if Ezekiel chose life, then Life in him will work to save others. Life of God works to save. In order for Ezekiel to decline to speak, he would have to not value or accept the life.
So to say it simply, Death is not an option. All mankind fell under its dominion. Life is an option that God offers us.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14961
07/12/05 05:33 AM
07/12/05 05:33 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, God does not “predict” the future. Instead, He portrays it perfectly. The word “predict” implies an element of guesswork. His word will not return unto Him void. His word will accomplish everything it sets out to do.
Isaiah
55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
“Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled.” Yes, if any one of the members of the Godhead had chosen to abandon man and the plan every living being throughout the universe, including heaven, would have been destroyed. Why? Because God would have lost the great controversy, and He couldn't allow His children to serve Him out of fear.
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