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Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Green Cochoa] #149938
02/22/13 12:03 PM
02/22/13 12:03 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Rick H
But here is the problem, these are not "lost souls" of human beings. The Greek word used in the verse is 'pneumasin' [Strong's Greek 4151] which is used in the New Testament to refer to angels (Hebrews 1:14), demons (Mark 1:23), the spirit of Jesus (Matthew 27:50), and the Holy Spirit (John 14:17). While the Bible makes it clear that human beings have the 'breath (of God)' His spirit or 'psuche' [Strong's Greek 5590] the Bible never refers to human beings as “spirits” or 'pneumasin'. We have a 'breath (of God)' or 'psuche' which makes us a living soul, but we are not spirits. God the Father, the Holy Spirit, angels, and demons do not have a spirit; they are spirits. So the standard meaning of the word spirits in the phrase “spirits in prison” shows that the spirits being something other than human beings.

If the spirits in prison are not the spirits of deceased human beings, and we know that the Holy Spirit is not imprisoned, and that God’s holy angels are not imprisoned, that leaves us with one option—the spirits in prison are demons, fallen angels.

So if you look at where the word 'pneumasin' is used in the scriptures and compare, 1 Peter 3:19 declares, “. . . He went and preached to the spirits in prison…” Who were these “spirits in prison,” it has in the the Greek 'tois en phulake pneumasin', or "the in prison spirits", they are 'pneumasin'. Lets look at the other use of pneumasin':

Luke 4:36
They were all amazed and began to say to one another, “What’s happening here? For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits (pneumasin), and they come out!”


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits (pneumasin) and doctrines of devils

So now you see what spirits (pneumasin) Peter is talking about, it refers to 'pneumasin', which are evil spirits (fallen angels).


Rick,

Yes they are the "lost souls" (if we presume to know the future of those souls and can be definitive that they are indeed "lost"). At least we can be definitive that the word applies to the human spirit as well as to a divine spirit.

The following verses use the exact same Greek word as the one which Peter used. These are but a sampling, and I am choosing the ones which emphasize the usage which I believe Peter has given to the word.

Quote:
Mt 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit 4151: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit 4151 indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.

Mk 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit 4151 that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Mk 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit 4151, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Mk 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit 4151 truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak.

Lk 1:47 And my spirit 4151 hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Lk 8:55 And her spirit 4151 came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Lk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit 4151 ye are of.

Jn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost 4151.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits 4151 in prison;


The word is used as "soul" in these verses, and it is the same word which Peter uses in speaking of preaching to these "souls" in bondage to sin.
GC, these verses you brought does not refer to the "soul". Soul is not equated with spirit in the OT.

When the Almighty created man, Man did not become a living soul(Nephesh) until His breathe(Ruach) of the Lord was breathed into his nostrils.

Nephesh is the Hebrew word for soul and strong defines it as "a breathing creature". Lev 17:14 says "for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it". The blood is what characterized the soul for the breath(oxygen) attaches to the blood cells to impart life. So this physical reality is the symbolism of our daily spiritual reality as described in the creation of man. And that what's makes man different from Angels.

Angels has no blood therefore they have no soul. They are spirits. This is what they envied from man. Man does have a spirit(emotion or thoughts from the mind) or can be possessed or influenced by one of the spirits(good or evil). But I don't see the Bible ever defining man or relating to man as a spirit.

I've looked up all occurences of spirit s used in plural in the NT and none is related to man as Rick says.


Blessings
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #149941
02/22/13 04:22 PM
02/22/13 04:22 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Pastor Bachelor is right on here.

Can you back that up by addressing with scriptures the three distorted points Doug makes?

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Amazing Facts
"Spirits In Prison
Please explain 1 Peter 3:18-20 where it speaks of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

- 1 Peter 3:18-20


There has been considerable misunderstanding of these verses of Scripture. It has been preached that Christ actually descended into the lower regions of the earth and preached to lost souls who were in prison in some type of purgatory or limbo. This is very far from what the text actually says. Let's look at it closely now and get the real message of these verses. It says, "Christ also hath once suffered for sins ... that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also He went and preached ..."

First of all, notice how Christ preached to those spirits in prison. He did it by the Spirit, and that word is capitalized in your Bible. It actually refers to the Holy Spirit. So whatsoever Christ did in preaching during this period of time, He did it through or by the Holy Spirit.

With that in view, let's ask this: "When was the preaching done?" The answer is plainly given in verse 20: "when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing." So the preaching was actually done while the ark was being built -- during the preaching of Noah to that antediluvian world. Now, one more question: "To whom was the preaching done?" The text says here "unto the spirits in prison." Throughout the Bible we find this terminology used in describing those who are bound in the prison house of sin. David prayed, "Bring my soul out of prison, ..." (Psalm 142:7).

Paul spoke of his experience in these words, "bringing me into captivity to the law of sin." What Peter is telling us here is simply that Christ, through the Holy Spirit, was present while Noah preached; Christ was there through the Holy Spirit to speak conviction to their hearts and appeal to them to come into the ark. There is absolutely nothing in this text to indicate that Jesus left His body during the time He was dead to go to any subterranean place to minister to wicked spirits. The three questions are clearly answered in the text itself: (1) that He preached by the Holy Spirit, (2) He did it while the ark was preparing, and (3) He did it to the spirits in prison, or to those individuals whose sinful lives were bound in the prison house of sin."
http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/spirits-in-prison.aspx

But I think they are missing the point, I think the question here is really is it about "lost souls" or "fallen angels". If it is about "lost souls" then it goes against all the many verses in scripture that clearly show that the dead know nothing and scripture does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as immortal before the resurrection. Now if they are "fallen angels", then there is no conflict with what scripture gives us on the state of the dead.

This study is a distortion of what the Bible actually says without looking at other key texts that would contradict this interpretation.

Here's their 3 points with my comments in [brackets]:

(1) that He preached by the Holy Spirit [The text does not say that at all, but rather that Jesus was quickened by the Spirit -- meaning resurrected.]

(2) He did it while the ark was preparing [Again not saying that at all. The text is referring to the spirits that were in prison(specified angels kept in Tartarus in 2 Pet 2:4) that were disobedient in the time of Noah. ]

(3) He did it to the spirits in prison, or to those individuals whose sinful lives were bound in the prison house of sin [ Well I just read Rick's post above and I agree with his word study. The spirits in prison is clearly specified in 2Pet 2:4 to be the fallen angels. There's many other texts to support that also. ]


Blessings
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Rick H] #149942
02/22/13 04:47 PM
02/22/13 04:47 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Satan wanted to be free of God, so he and his angels were sent out of God's Universe with no where to stand. This is the original place called the abyss, nothing there, dark, cold, completely void of light. The only access they had to light was from the portal to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Demons are terrified of that place called the abyss and would rather be sent into swine then be sent back there.

The future sense of the word abyss is during the 1000 years that satan and crew are stuck here waiting the execution of there sentence. He has a place to stand but that's about it, and he has a thousand years to witness the results of his failed coup, anticipating his execution.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Green Cochoa] #149944
02/22/13 05:36 PM
02/22/13 05:36 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Does the word "spirits" in these verses refer to angels or to men?

Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #149945
02/22/13 06:10 PM
02/22/13 06:10 PM
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JAK  Offline
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Quote:
Satan wanted to be free of God, so he and his angels were sent out of God's Universe with no where to stand. This is the original place called the abyss, nothing there, dark, cold, completely void of light. The only access they had to light was from the portal to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Fortunately most people who read this are too smarat to believe it. Especially with absolutely no documentation.

Signed: The FREAK


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Rick H] #149946
02/22/13 06:53 PM
02/22/13 06:53 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rick H
So we see the word employed in various senses in the Bible and so the context has to be taken in to understand exactly what it is trying to convey.

The word used in 1 Peter 3:18-20, is 'pneumasin' which is many spirits. Then the context tells us they are not good spirits as otherwise they would not be in prison and 2 Peter 2:4 supports this context.

King James 2 Peter 2:4
'For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;'

and so does Jude 1:6
'And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.'

So in this context they are not the spirit or soul of a human being or one spirit or many holy angels, but of many fallen or evil angels.


Rick,

I have bolded the part in your post above where I think you may be going astray in your thinking. Strictly speaking, the statement you have made is correct, but I can see as it were the wheels of your mind tending toward the equation of "not good spirits" with "evil spirits," i.e. "demons." That A = B = C progression is invalid. Let's go straight back to A for a moment and determine that it is correctly applied when referring to the human spirit.

Consider that these are "not good spirits"...

Originally Posted By: The Bible
"The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Psalm 14:2-3)

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)


Both of these verses tell us that we are not good, only God is good. Even the best of us is not good. How, then, could our spirits be good? They must be necessarily be evil.

We are all lost and captive to sin without a knowledge and faith acceptance of the Gospel.

Let's look at our "captivity" for a moment:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; (Isaiah 61:1)

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:23-24)


These passages allude to the captivity of all people. Paul wishes to be delivered from his captivity, and expressly declares it as captivity to sin. Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." So the captivity is, at least in part, caused by ignorance of the truth. It is truth that liberates.

Here's another passage to contemplate.

Originally Posted By: The Bible

25:35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?


Consider the spiritual application of the above, in addition to the physical. In fact, why is it that the righteous do not recall having done all of those things to Jesus? Might it be that they have understood only the physical sense of it and have missed the symbols?

Feed the hungry = Provide spiritual food/nourishment to those who hunger for the truth
Thirsty = Desirous of the water of life
Stranger = Non-member guest at church, or "un-churched" person
Naked = Not having Christ's robe of righteousness
Sick = sin-sick
In prison = in bondage to sin, captive by sin

David recognizes that without God's help, even he is lost: "I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments." (Psalm 119:176) Jesus speaks of this world as a lost sheep, a lost coin, or as a lost son. We are all "lost" by default in this world. This is why Jesus came to save and to redeem us. It is this very concept that Peter refers to in saying that Jesus preached unto the spirits in prison by His death and resurrection. Jesus Himself said that if He were "lifted up" He would "draw all men" to Himself. In other words, the sacrifice He made on the cross would preach to everyone.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Green Cochoa] #149952
02/23/13 12:27 AM
02/23/13 12:27 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So we see the word employed in various senses in the Bible and so the context has to be taken in to understand exactly what it is trying to convey.

The word used in 1 Peter 3:18-20, is 'pneumasin' which is many spirits. Then the context tells us they are not good spirits as otherwise they would not be in prison and 2 Peter 2:4 supports this context.

King James 2 Peter 2:4
'For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;'

and so does Jude 1:6
'And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.'

So in this context they are not the spirit or soul of a human being or one spirit or many holy angels, but of many fallen or evil angels.


Rick,

I have bolded the part in your post above where I think you may be going astray in your thinking. Strictly speaking, the statement you have made is correct, but I can see as it were the wheels of your mind tending toward the equation of "not good spirits" with "evil spirits," i.e. "demons." That A = B = C progression is invalid. Let's go straight back to A for a moment and determine that it is correctly applied when referring to the human spirit.

Consider that these are "not good spirits"...

Originally Posted By: The Bible
"The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Psalm 14:2-3)

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)


Both of these verses tell us that we are not good, only God is good. Even the best of us is not good. How, then, could our spirits be good? They must be necessarily be evil.

We are all lost and captive to sin without a knowledge and faith acceptance of the Gospel.

Let's look at our "captivity" for a moment:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; (Isaiah 61:1)

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:23-24)


These passages allude to the captivity of all people. Paul wishes to be delivered from his captivity, and expressly declares it as captivity to sin. Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." So the captivity is, at least in part, caused by ignorance of the truth. It is truth that liberates.

Here's another passage to contemplate.

Originally Posted By: The Bible

25:35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?


Consider the spiritual application of the above, in addition to the physical. In fact, why is it that the righteous do not recall having done all of those things to Jesus? Might it be that they have understood only the physical sense of it and have missed the symbols?

Feed the hungry = Provide spiritual food/nourishment to those who hunger for the truth
Thirsty = Desirous of the water of life
Stranger = Non-member guest at church, or "un-churched" person
Naked = Not having Christ's robe of righteousness
Sick = sin-sick
In prison = in bondage to sin, captive by sin

David recognizes that without God's help, even he is lost: "I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments." (Psalm 119:176) Jesus speaks of this world as a lost sheep, a lost coin, or as a lost son. We are all "lost" by default in this world. This is why Jesus came to save and to redeem us. It is this very concept that Peter refers to in saying that Jesus preached unto the spirits in prison by His death and resurrection. Jesus Himself said that if He were "lifted up" He would "draw all men" to Himself. In other words, the sacrifice He made on the cross would preach to everyone.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
GC, you see my line of thinking very clearly, as Daryl knows I take the bit by the teeth and bear down till either the scripture bears it out, or the Holy Spirit unveils the truth of the matter. So my next question for us (and I am including everyone) is what does the Spirit of Prophecy say on these verses, we need to pray and humbly search the testimony given to us and see if it can shed some light on this.

Happy Sabbath
Rick

Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Rosangela] #149953
02/23/13 12:51 AM
02/23/13 12:51 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Does the word "spirits" in these verses refer to angels or to men?

Rosangela,

Heb 12:9 literaly says that we had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits, or 'angels' from context, ( 4151 [e] pneumaton 'of spirits'), and live?

Heb 12:23 the context clearly says it is the spirits of righteous human beings, in this case Enoch and Elijah come to mind. It uses 'pneumasi' instead of 'pneumaton'. (4151 [e] pneumasi to [the] spirits, 1342 [e] dikaion: of [the] righteous 5048 [e] teteleiomenon; [who] have been perfected; Enoch and Elijah could in no way walk or be with God unless they (in this case their spiritual side) were perfected.

So you have to look at context, and usage, and see if the Greek word varies, its not easy.

Shabbat Shalom
Rick

Last edited by Rick H; 02/23/13 01:06 AM.
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Rosangela] #149954
02/23/13 12:55 AM
02/23/13 12:55 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Does the word "spirits" in these verses refer to angels or to men?

Heb 12:9 -- Angels -- if you read the chapter, it is talking about disciplining us for sonship. The only man that is born as Son of G-d is Adam. All other people are sons of men(born of men). We become sons of G-d only by through discipline and once we graduate we will be adopted. Besides Adam, all angels were created by the Father. They were not procreated like people are.

Heb 12:9 is stating us an obvious reasoning by pointing out that earthly (carnal) Fathers disciplines their children and we give them reverence, so shouldn't we rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits(angels) who has and still is disciplining them by which are still kept alive in Tartarus waiting for their just judgment. The spirits in Heb 12:9 cannot be men for the Father has not fathered us. It is true that He is disciplining us in the goal to bring us into Sonship, however the manifestation of the Sons of God(graduation day for the Firstfruit company) will only come at Jesus 2nd coming.

Heb 12:23 -- spirits of just Men that is made perfect -- It is the spirits of a group of men that is made perfect. It is not their body or other parts of their being that is made perfect, but the text specifies that it is their spirit. This is totally different then referencing men as spirits.


Blessings
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Elle] #149956
02/23/13 01:09 AM
02/23/13 01:09 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Does the word "spirits" in these verses refer to angels or to men?

Heb 12:9 -- Angels -- if you read the chapter, it is talking about disciplining us for sonship. The only man that is born as Son of G-d is Adam. All other people are sons of men(born of men). We become sons of G-d only by through discipline and once we graduate we will be adopted. Besides Adam, all angels were created by the Father. They were not procreated like people are.

Heb 12:9 is stating us an obvious reasoning by pointing out that earthly (carnal) Fathers disciplines their children and we give them reverence, so shouldn't we rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits(angels) who has and still is disciplining them by which are still kept alive in Tartarus waiting for their just judgment. The spirits in Heb 12:9 cannot be men for the Father has not fathered us. It is true that He is disciplining us in the goal to bring us into Sonship, however the manifestation of the Sons of God(graduation day for the Firstfruit company) will only come at Jesus 2nd coming.

Heb 12:23 -- spirits of just Men that is made perfect -- It is the spirits of a group of men that is made perfect. It is not their body or other parts of their being that is made perfect, but the text specifies that it is their spirit. This is totally different then referencing men as spirits.
Elle, I cant believe we wrote almost the same explanation.

God Bless my sister, Rick

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