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Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150684
03/13/13 03:42 AM
03/13/13 03:42 AM
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JAK  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Sin is a legal problem.
Actually that's not quite true. Sin is a quantum cosmology problem.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: JAK] #150685
03/13/13 04:24 AM
03/13/13 04:24 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: APL
Sin is a legal problem.
Actually that's not quite true. Sin is a quantum cosmology problem.
One thing for sure, sin is NOT a legal problem.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150690
03/13/13 03:30 PM
03/13/13 03:30 PM
APL  Offline
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I just love the selective reasoning of men who say stuff like "if you don't love me I'll kill you" in regards to God's justice.

You quoted this much of a statement from Ellen White... "love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." 

OK - is this true or not???? YES - it is true.

But if continue on in that exact same quote, she then says this near the end;

Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” {DA 25.2}

YES - SIN Killed Him. Not God.

Jesus suffered second death, being cut off from the Father so we do not have to suffer it ourselves yet you think this had nothing to do with God and His righteousness.

And WHAT caused the separation from the Father? SIN. The Father is not the cause of the separation.

It is as if you believe as the Vatican teaches that Satan is in control of hell. Satan will burned with fire just as the wicked will and this punishment comes directly from the Father.

SIN is the the cause of all suffering and death. It is like Satan to accuse God of being a tyrant and a murder. But on the day of final judgement, God will stand clear of the origin and continuation of sin.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150691
03/13/13 03:37 PM
03/13/13 03:37 PM
APL  Offline
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Love cannot be commanded and love cannot be fabricated.

It is by love that we learn to love and this separates those who truly love from those who try to earn salvation through keeping the commandments. That was what she was saying.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

Realizing our fate is in the hands of God leads us to repentance.

Interesting. My Bible tells me that it is the KINDNESS OF GOD that leads us to repentance. Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

When we see His love we learn to love but this is not a part of us from birth, we are born WITHOUT this love, so it is a learned element of faith. Not something from ourselves so in essence without the guidance and example of God through Jesus it is impossible to truly love unselfishly.

So there is NO MARRIAGE without the love of Christ guiding us to God.

So EGW is right!!! "Only by love is love awakened." And what if we do not love Him back? He will kill you!!! (NOT) You will perish, but not by execution.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150692
03/13/13 03:46 PM
03/13/13 03:46 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
You see God as the executioner.


APL,

As I've considered this constant tension between the two sides on this issue, I am led to believe that there is a misunderstanding contributing to this. Yes, I see God as the executioner. But it's not what you think. I do NOT see God as being vengeful, capricious, arbitrary, unfair, unjust, unforgiving, unmerciful, or impatient. God does not execute justice for any of our sin-tainted reasons which color our perception of how God may be acting. You see, God has no sin. What He does is done in perfect fairness and love.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy his people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is none the less certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act." [Isaiah 28:21.] To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked," [Ezekiel 33:11.] The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth," "forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet he will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." [Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3.] By terrible things in righteousness he will vindicate the authority of his downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which he bears long, and which he will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC88 627.1}

When Christ ceases his intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark, [Revelation 14:9, 10.] will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel, were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the Revelator, in describing these terrific scourges, "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." The sea "became as the blood of a dead man, and every living soul died in the sea." And "the rivers and fountains of waters became blood." [Revelation 16:2-6, 8, 9.] Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares, "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. [Revelation 16:2-6, 8, 9.] By condemning the people of God to death they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood, as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of his time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit, and were seeking to do the same work, with these murderers of the prophets. {GC88 627.2}

In the plague that follows, power is given to the sun "to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat." [Revelation 16:2-6, 8, 9.] The prophets thus describe the condition of the earth at this fearful time: "The land mourneth;. . . because the harvest of the field is perished." "All the trees of the field are withered; because joy is withered away from the sons of men." "The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate." "How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture. . . . The rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness." "The songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God; there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence." [Joel 1:10-12, 17-20; Amos 8:3.] {GC88 628.1}

These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final Judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC88 628.2}


As Mrs. White points out, never in earth's history has there ever been a judgment of God poured out without mercy. Always before, God's judgments have been tempered with mercy. So we have no Biblical example of something already past in which God's justice can be perfectly seen for what it will be in the end. We have glimpses, though, such as that of Sodom.

In the end, all of the watching universe will wonder at God's patience, and will desire the judgment, almost impatiently, as if God had waited too long to execute His justice. This is the fascinating part, to me. While looking for the statement that speaks of this, which I've read but don't remember where, I found a couple of others.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
For what was the great controversy permitted to continue throughout the ages? Why was it that Satan's existence was not cut short at the outset of his rebellion? It was that the universe might be convinced of God's justice in His dealing with evil; that sin might receive eternal condemnation. In the plan of redemption there are heights and depths that eternity itself can never exhaust, marvels into which the angels desire to look. The redeemed only, of all created beings, have in their own experience known the actual conflict with sin; they have wrought with Christ, and, as even the angels could not do, have entered into the fellowship of His sufferings; will they have no testimony as to the science of redemption --nothing that will be of worth to unfallen beings? {Ed 308.3}


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. . . . God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. . . . {FLB 176.6}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150693
03/13/13 04:05 PM
03/13/13 04:05 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to strike Egypt, and when he sees the blood on the top of the doorframe and the two side posts, then the LORD will pass over the door, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150694
03/13/13 04:37 PM
03/13/13 04:37 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Yes APL, and who had to die instead? The lamb. For the sins we had already committed before God saved us from our selfishness.

You think like a person who believes that we are on an equal playing ground with God. Like we are god's ourselves instead of born into wicked shame that we must be saved from.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150697
03/13/13 04:45 PM
03/13/13 04:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
MM - was EGW wrong when she said, "love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority."

She did not contradict the passages I posted.

Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Mountain Man] #150698
03/13/13 04:54 PM
03/13/13 04:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all." Jude 14, 15.

Besides the coming of the Lord to His temple, Malachi also foretells His second advent, His coming for the execution of the judgment, in these words: "And I will come near
426
to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not Me, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 3:5. Jude refers to the same scene when he says, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15. This coming, and the coming of the Lord to His temple, are distinct and separate events. {GC 425.3}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. . . . While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who become hardened in sin. . . . And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {CC 155.4}

Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150699
03/13/13 05:10 PM
03/13/13 05:10 PM
APL  Offline
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No Green - I do not believe that God is the executioner. The judgements of God are of the manner of declarations of truth. You sin, you will die. Sin causes death. This is not how you see it. This is the different. You say, "you sin, then I will kill you". Not only that, you say, "I will kill you out of love, out of the kindness of my heart".

If the plan of redemption was not put into action in the beginning of sin with man, humans would have perished. Not because of God killing them, but because sin would have destroyed them. "In the day you eat, you will die". It does not say, "in the day you eat, I will execute you".
Originally Posted By: EGW
Even when he was cast out of heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since only the service of love can be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of the worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted out of existence, some would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, he must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, and that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might be forever placed beyond all question. {PP 42.3}

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages--a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and its terrible results. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty. {PP 42.4}
Many points could be make, but I point out 3.
1) the nature or consequences of sin - - Sin kills, it destroys. But Green says, it is God that kills.
2) a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and ITS terrible results. Sin kills and destroys. But Green says, it is God that kills and destroys.
3) to prevent us from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, and suffer its penalty. Sin kills, it is sin that destroys. But Green says, the penalty of sin is execution by God.

You suggest Green that that last plagues are caused by God. Are they? NO. They are caused by Satan when God removes His protection.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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