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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15173
07/28/05 04:11 PM
07/28/05 04:11 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote: It is in our hearts and minds that the law was broken; there is where the gulf is made. There is where Christ satisfies the claims of the broken law by bridging the gulf which sin has made.
According to the quotes posted above Jesus satisfied the law on the cross, not in our mind and heart. Justice (i.e., God) demanded that the death penalty be executed, and Jesus satisfied this demand on the cross, not in our mind and heart.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15174
07/28/05 04:17 PM
07/28/05 04:17 PM
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OP
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quote: Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed.
God does not dismiss the death penalty when He pardons us. Mercy and compassion does not negate the death penalty.
Jesus did not die on the cross to primarily help us realize our views of justice and mercy, sin and rightetousness, are perverted. No, He died on the cross primarily to satisfy God's demand that the death penalty be executed.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15175
07/28/05 07:08 PM
07/28/05 07:08 PM
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To consider the answer to the question of why Jesus had to die, I think it would first be helpful to ask what problems needed to be solved. There was a war in heaven. What was the cause of this war? How could the war be won?
The one who caused the war in heaven, brought his sophistry to earth. By deception, he led our parents to rebel. How does the death of Christ fix these problems?
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15176
07/28/05 08:36 PM
07/28/05 08:36 PM
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OP
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1. What are the problems that need to be solved?
FMAs have sinned and must die. It has been blamed on God for enforcing a law that not even He is willing to obey. To vindicate God’s law and character, and to pardon mankind, the death penalty must be executed.
2. There was a war in heaven. What was the cause of this war? How could the war be won?
Lucifer refused to repent. War broke out between Jesus and His angels and Lucifer and his angels. Jesus prevailed, and the evil angels were cast down to earth. To win the great controversy Jesus must disprove Satan’s accusations about His kingdom and character, and prove that obeying the law is the only way to experience true peace and happiness.
3. The one who caused the war in heaven, brought his sophistry to earth. By deception, he led our parents to rebel. How does the death of Christ fix these problems?
The death of Christ on the cross is only part of the solution. He also had to live a perfect life. After His resurrection, Jesus had to intercede between God and man in the heavenly sanctuary, first in the HP, and then in the MHP. He must also empower the 144,000 to perfectly reproduce His character. In the end, Jesus must punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire, and restore paradise lost.
The death of Jesus on the cross solves several problems. The primary problem it addresses is the death penalty. God required that the death penalty be executed, and Jesus took that upon Himself on the cross. Now that the death penalty has been paid, God is free to pardon us, and to empower us to reproduce Jesus’ sinless character.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15177
07/28/05 11:10 PM
07/28/05 11:10 PM
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What Law was broken?
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
God has never ceased fulfilling the Law. God is Love. It is in our hearts and minds that the law was broken; there is where the gulf is made. Sin has broken God’s Law of life, and established the law of sin and death. There is where Christ satisfies the claims of the broken law by bridging the gulf which sin has made.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
MM, your idea of Justice is outside of God's Law, for it worketh ill to his neighbor; it only and ever works death.
God's idea of justice is Life Everlasting. Therefore God can save.
There are many who do not believe that God can forgive, despite all that Jesus has said and done.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15178
07/29/05 12:07 AM
07/29/05 12:07 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom: Thank you, MM, for answering my questions.
Old Tom: 1. What are the problems that need to be solved?
MM: FMAs have sinned and must die. It has been blamed on God for enforcing a law that not even He is willing to obey. To vindicate God’s law and character, and to pardon mankind, the death penalty must be executed.
Tom: So the problem that needed to be fixed was with God's law. It needed to be vindicated because of sin. God was able to fix the problem with His law by executuing the death penatly.
Old Tom: 2. There was a war in heaven. What was the cause of this war? How could the war be won?
MM: Lucifer refused to repent. War broke out between Jesus and His angels and Lucifer and his angels. Jesus prevailed, and the evil angels were cast down to earth. To win the great controversy Jesus must disprove Satan’s accusations about His kingdom and character, and prove that obeying the law is the only way to experience true peace and happiness.
Tom: So the death of Christ has nothing to do with the problems which began in heaven? At least your answer does not suggest that Christ's death had anything to do with solving that problem.
Old Tom: 3. The one who caused the war in heaven, brought his sophistry to earth. By deception, he led our parents to rebel. How does the death of Christ fix these problems?
MM: The death of Christ on the cross is only part of the solution. He also had to live a perfect life. After His resurrection, Jesus had to intercede between God and man in the heavenly sanctuary, first in the HP, and then in the MHP. He must also empower the 144,000 to perfectly reproduce His character. In the end, Jesus must punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire, and restore paradise lost.
The death of Jesus on the cross solves several problems. The primary problem it addresses is the death penalty. God required that the death penalty be executed, and Jesus took that upon Himself on the cross. Now that the death penalty has been paid, God is free to pardon us, and to empower us to reproduce Jesus’ sinless character.
Tom: You say that God required the death penalty be executed. Why? That is, why did God require this?
Let's say for the sake of argument that God did not require a death penalty to be paid. In this case, would it have been necessary for Christ do die? If He didn't require a death penalty, could we have been forgiven without Christ's death on the cross?
Finally, how is it that God could forgive Satan's sins without a death penalty being executed, but not ours? (God would have accepted Satan back into his former position, after he had sinned, on the condition of repentance. No blood was necessary)
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15179
07/29/05 12:08 AM
07/29/05 12:08 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote: It is in our hearts and minds that the law was broken; there is where the gulf is made. Sin has broken God’s Law of life, and established the law of sin and death. There is where Christ satisfies the claims of the broken law by bridging the gulf which sin has made.
This was wonderfully put!
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15180
07/30/05 03:55 AM
07/30/05 03:55 AM
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OP
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John, I agree with you that Jesus empowers us to love God and man. I also happen to agree with Sister White that God demanded the death penalty be executed, and it was.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15181
07/29/05 04:38 PM
07/29/05 04:38 PM
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OP
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quote: Let's say for the sake of argument that God did not require a death penalty to be paid. In this case, would it have been necessary for Christ do die? If He didn't require a death penalty, could we have been forgiven without Christ's death on the cross?
Assuming such a thing for the sake of argument assumes such a thing was possible, which, of course, it was not. The death of Jesus accomplishes many things, most notably it satisfied God’s demand that the death penalty be executed. Why does God require the death penalty? Good question. What do you think?
quote: Finally, how is it that God could forgive Satan's sins without a death penalty being executed, but not ours? (God would have accepted Satan back into his former position, after he had sinned, on the condition of repentance. No blood was necessary)
Where does it say in the Bible or the SOP that Lucifer had already “sinned” by the time God offered to restore him to his former status? Nowhere in the following account does Sister White say Lucifer had sinned. Are you also one of those people who believe Eve sinned before she ate the forbidden fruit?
PP 39 “In great mercy, according to His divine character, God bore long with Lucifer. The spirit of discontent and disaffection had never before been known in heaven. It was a new element, strange, mysterious, unaccountable. Lucifer himself had not at first been acquainted with the real nature of his feelings; for a time he had feared to express the workings and imaginings of his mind; yet he did not dismiss them. He did not see whither he was drifting. But such efforts as infinite love and wisdom only could devise, were made to convince him of his error. His disaffection was proved to be without cause, and he was made to see what would be the result of persisting in revolt.
“Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong. He saw that "the Lord is righteous in all His ways, and holy in all His works" (Psalm 145:17); that the divine statutes are just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at that time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had left his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office.
“The time had come for a final decision; he must fully yield to the divine sovereignty or place himself in open rebellion. He nearly reached the decision to return, but pride forbade him. It was too great a sacrifice for one who had been so highly honored to confess that he had been in error, that his imaginings were false, and to yield to the authority which he had been working to prove unjust.”
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15182
07/30/05 03:50 AM
07/30/05 03:50 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom: Let's say for the sake of argument that God did not require a death penalty to be paid. In this case, would it have been necessary for Christ do die? If He didn't require a death penalty, could we have been forgiven without Christ's death on the cross?
MM: Assuming such a thing for the sake of argument assumes such a thing was possible, which, of course, it was not.
Tom: It wsn't possible for God not to require a death penalty? Why not?
But please humor me, because I believe my question is important, getting to the heart of the matter. Let's assume it was possible for God not to require a death penalty. If He didn't require a death penalty to be paid (let's say, for example, that it is we who required the penalty to be paid, as if we were the one who needed it, rather than God) would it have been possible for us to have received God's forgiveness? Could we have been reconciled to God without Christ's death?
This begs the question as to how Christ's death reconciles us, the answer of which is found in Col. 1:19-21 as well as 1 Pet. 2:24, 25 and 1 Pet. 3:18.
MM: The death of Jesus accomplishes many things, most notably it satisfied God’s demand that the death penalty be executed. Why does God require the death penalty? Good question. What do you think?
Tom: I think we required it. We were the ones who sinned, not God. God doesn't need anything; He's perfect.
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