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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: kland]
#152211
04/30/13 01:21 AM
04/30/13 01:21 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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JSOT, Noah did not father his daughters-in-law, nor did his sons marry their sisters. Kland, in the post above, indicates a recognition of the correct possibility here, and one that would fall into agreement with Genesis chapter six where we are expressly told that the sons of God looked upon the daughters of men that they were fair. Mrs. White tells us this was the sons of Seth's lineage looking upon the daughters of the race of Cain. This was happening just before the flood. Noah had his own PK's. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152212
04/30/13 01:31 AM
04/30/13 01:31 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Kland, God did not curse another person making him black for his father's sin. The blackness, if indeed it existed (it is my theory that it did), came from Ham's wife and was already present. The support for the concept of races (not to be confused with "racist"--please!) comes from the following statement of Mrs. White. Noah, speaking by divine inspiration, foretold the history of the three great races to spring from these fathers of mankind. Tracing the descendants of Ham, through the son rather than the father, he declared, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." The unnatural crime of Ham declared that filial reverence had long before been cast from his soul, and it revealed the impiety and vileness of his character. These evil characteristics were perpetuated in Canaan and his posterity, whose continued guilt called upon them the judgments of God. {PP 117.2}
On the other hand, the reverence manifested by Shem and Japheth for their father, and thus for the divine statutes, promised a brighter future for their descendants. Concerning these sons it was declared: "Blessed be Jehovah, God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant." The line of Shem was to be that of the chosen people, of God's covenant, of the promised Redeemer. Jehovah was the God of Shem. From him would descend Abraham, and the people of Israel, through whom Christ was to come. "Happy is that people, whose God is the Lord." Psalm 144:15. And Japheth "shall dwell in the tents of Shem." In the blessings of the gospel the descendants of Japheth were especially to share. {PP 117.3}
The posterity of Canaan descended to the most degrading forms of heathenism. Though the prophetic curse had doomed them to slavery, the doom was withheld for centuries. God bore with their impiety and corruption until they passed the limits of divine forbearance. Then they were dispossessed, and became bondmen to the descendants of Shem and Japheth. {PP 118.1}
The prophecy of Noah was no arbitrary denunciation of wrath or declaration of favor. It did not fix the character and destiny of his sons. But it showed what would be the result of the course of life they had severally chosen and the character they had developed. It was an expression of God's purpose toward them and their posterity in view of their own character and conduct. As a rule, children inherit the dispositions and tendencies of their parents, and imitate their example; so that the sins of the parents are practiced by the children from generation to generation. Thus the vileness and irreverence of Ham were reproduced in his posterity, bringing a curse upon them for many generations. "One sinner destroyeth much good." Ecclesiastes 9:18. {PP 118.2}
On the other hand, how richly rewarded was Shem's respect for his father; and what an illustrious line of holy men appears in his posterity! "The Lord knoweth the days of the upright," "and his seed is blessed." Psalm 37:18, 26. "Know therefore that the Lord thy God He is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations." Deuteronomy 7:9. {PP 118.3} Notice especially the part where Mrs. White says that God's curse did not fix the destiny of Noah's sons. It only predicted it. This is a different manner of curse than that of the curses given in Eden. In this case, it is not a Christian's duty to "enforce the curse." To the contrary, we should work against evil to the fullest of our ability. It is evil to enslave other men. Slavery should be abolished. Prejudice against others should cease. We can and should use our influence against these wrongs. Are there races of men? Certainly. Need we be prejudiced against any of them? Of a certain not. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: kland]
#152214
04/30/13 02:02 AM
04/30/13 02:02 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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This is how I see the descendants of Noah.
Adam---- FULL GENETICS passed to Noah-
Slight division of available DNA but nothing radical given to; Shem---- Ham---- Jafet----
They had wives who made genetic distinctions in their offspring--- The offspring of Noah's children created the three great races.
Inbreeding of these three different races in isolated conformity created sub races.
ALSO;
At the flood meteorites penetrated the upper firmament and cracked the surface of the earth.
When the covering of the upper firmament, the protective oceanic bubble-like barrier above the atmosphere, was withdrawn and came crashing down at the flood, this resulted in our earth being exposed to the sun and other cosmic sources of radiation.
Also at the flood the general crushing of rocks and the tearing of the core of the earth exposed us to other radiation producing elements like Uranium and thorium, and potassium, and their radioactive derivatives. Since this exposure was no longer filtered from its harmful elements, we were exposed to DNA altering and limiting factors and the Beta, Gamma and x rays caused great genetic variations which became more and more common.
Since the flood our race has degraded to genetic mutations which causes one in 4 children to have some kind of genetic malfunction.
Jesus needs to come soon or no flesh will be saved.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152215
04/30/13 02:08 AM
04/30/13 02:08 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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JSOT, Noah did not father his daughters-in-law, nor did his sons marry their sisters. Kland, in the post above, indicates a recognition of the correct possibility here, and one that would fall into agreement with Genesis chapter six where we are expressly told that the sons of God looked upon the daughters of men that they were fair. Mrs. White tells us this was the sons of Seth's lineage looking upon the daughters of the race of Cain. This was happening just before the flood. Noah had his own PK's. Blessings, Green Cochoa. The son's of God (the descendants of Seth; who were white according to you) Looked upon the daughters of men (the descendants of Cain who were black according to you) And saw that they were fair, but they were black? Since so many white people would agree with you, you might be onto something in your theory that you obviously didn't think through all the way. Maybe the Black race of men are the fair race. You don't realise that you just proved your theory is wrong.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#152228
04/30/13 03:30 PM
04/30/13 03:30 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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Another point is, if God illustrated that the flood was inflicted upon the earth because of Commingling of the Son's of God with the daughters of men and this was one of the main reasons that showed that they did not have faith and their thoughts were evil continually, then why would a fallen couple get onboard the ark and why would God preserve them?
God destroyed the earth for this reason yet He preserved them to repopulate the earth?
Doesn't make much sense. Ham hated his father and committed a fresh sin in the sight of God after directly seeing the results of sin. There is no more excuse after you see the results and still covet sin. This is the hardening of his heart and his character was what caused his ancestors to be cursed, because they were raised with the same irreverent attitude.
Those who honored and feared to offend God, at first felt the curse but lightly; while those who turned from God and trampled upon his authority, felt the effects of the curse more heavily, especially in stature and nobleness of form. The descendants of Seth were called the sons of God—the descendants of Cain, the sons of men. As the sons of God mingled with the sons of men, they became corrupt, and by intermarriage with them, lost, through the influence of their wives, their peculiar, holy character, and united with the sons of Cain in their idolatry. Many cast aside the fear of God, and trampled upon his commandments. But there were a few that did righteousness, who feared and honored their Creator. Noah and his family were among the righteous few. {1SP 66.1}
Doesn't sound like they were considered commingled does it?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#152235
05/01/13 02:22 AM
05/01/13 02:22 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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This is how I see the descendants of Noah.
Adam---- FULL GENETICS passed to Noah- Do YOU have Adam's "full genetics?" If so, why? If not, why not? If different from Noah's case, why would Noah have had Adam's "full genetics?" Separately, if Noah had Adam's full genetics, what makes Noah NOT be a "clone" or an "identical twin" of Adam? Slight division of available DNA but nothing radical given to; Shem---- Ham---- Jafet----
They had wives who made genetic distinctions in their offspring--- The offspring of Noah's children created the three great races.
So, to your view, Noah gave his sons his genes, and the three great races were all the "fault" of the wives? Inbreeding of these three different races in isolated conformity created sub races.
Last time I checked, "inbreeding" had a very different meaning than that of interracial marriage. Perhaps you would like to clarify your particular usage of this term. In fact, it comes to my mind that "inbreeding" within a race is far more likely to promote racial distinctions than would "interbreeding" with other races. ALSO;
At the flood meteorites penetrated the upper firmament and cracked the surface of the earth.
When the covering of the upper firmament, the protective oceanic bubble-like barrier above the atmosphere, was withdrawn and came crashing down at the flood, this resulted in our earth being exposed to the sun and other cosmic sources of radiation.
Also at the flood the general crushing of rocks and the tearing of the core of the earth exposed us to other radiation producing elements like Uranium and thorium, and potassium, and their radioactive derivatives. Since this exposure was no longer filtered from its harmful elements, we were exposed to DNA altering and limiting factors and the Beta, Gamma and x rays caused great genetic variations which became more and more common.
Since the flood our race has degraded to genetic mutations which causes one in 4 children to have some kind of genetic malfunction.
Jesus needs to come soon or no flesh will be saved.
This seems of little relevance to this topic, in my opinion. Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread with this regarding the degeneration of mankind. The topic here was focused on the origination of the races, and whether or not Adam fathered them all or whether God created other humans with a separate DNA set from that of Adam in order to promote the races we have today. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#152236
05/01/13 02:37 AM
05/01/13 02:37 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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JSOT, Noah did not father his daughters-in-law, nor did his sons marry their sisters. Kland, in the post above, indicates a recognition of the correct possibility here, and one that would fall into agreement with Genesis chapter six where we are expressly told that the sons of God looked upon the daughters of men that they were fair. Mrs. White tells us this was the sons of Seth's lineage looking upon the daughters of the race of Cain. This was happening just before the flood. Noah had his own PK's. Blessings, Green Cochoa. The son's of God (the descendants of Seth; who were white according to you) Looked upon the daughters of men (the descendants of Cain who were black according to you) And saw that they were fair, but they were black? Since so many white people would agree with you, you might be onto something in your theory that you obviously didn't think through all the way. Maybe the Black race of men are the fair race. You don't realise that you just proved your theory is wrong. Please quote where I said that the descendants of Seth were white. I don't remember ever saying such a thing. It's my understanding that the word "Adam" means "red." If I had ever ascribed a color to the descendants of Seth, I probably would have used a word like "ruddy." You can attempt to say I've proved myself wrong by misstating my words, but that does not make your statement true. Now, let's look at your misunderstanding of the word "fair." The Hebrew word here is "towb." Used as an adjective, as in the verse you quoted, it means: good, pleasant, agreeable a) pleasant, agreeable (to the senses) b) pleasant (to the higher nature) c) good, excellent (of its kind) d) good, rich, valuable in estimation e) good, appropriate, becoming f) better (comparative) g) glad, happy, prosperous (of man's sensuous nature) h) good understanding (of man's intellectual nature) i) good, kind, benign j) good, right (ethical) Do you see any mention of colors? (I don't.) Most translations use the modern equivalent of the old-English "fair" and say "beautiful." I've noticed that most whites think a nice dark tan looks beautiful. In fact, I've also noticed that most dark Asians think light skin looks beautiful. So the whites go suntanning and the darks go under umbrellas to hide from the sun. It seems it's human nature to want a different look....which, by the way, supports my theory that Cain's race looked different. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#152237
05/01/13 02:56 AM
05/01/13 02:56 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Another point is, if God illustrated that the flood was inflicted upon the earth because of Commingling of the Son's of God with the daughters of men and this was one of the main reasons that showed that they did not have faith and their thoughts were evil continually, then why would a fallen couple get onboard the ark and why would God preserve them?
God destroyed the earth for this reason yet He preserved them to repopulate the earth?
Doesn't make much sense. Ham hated his father and committed a fresh sin in the sight of God after directly seeing the results of sin. There is no more excuse after you see the results and still covet sin. This is the hardening of his heart and his character was what caused his ancestors to be cursed, because they were raised with the same irreverent attitude.
Those who honored and feared to offend God, at first felt the curse but lightly; while those who turned from God and trampled upon his authority, felt the effects of the curse more heavily, especially in stature and nobleness of form. The descendants of Seth were called the sons of God—the descendants of Cain, the sons of men. As the sons of God mingled with the sons of men, they became corrupt, and by intermarriage with them, lost, through the influence of their wives, their peculiar, holy character, and united with the sons of Cain in their idolatry. Many cast aside the fear of God, and trampled upon his commandments. But there were a few that did righteousness, who feared and honored their Creator. Noah and his family were among the righteous few. {1SP 66.1}
Doesn't sound like they were considered commingled does it? JSOT, It seems to me that those who believe it was a cardinal sin, on account of their racial differences, for the line of Seth to marry the race of Cain are the real racists here. If you believe that God destroyed the world by flood for the intermarrying of two different races, then it follows that you believe those races should have remained separate and that it was a very grievous sin indeed for them to intermarry. I believe this was not the problem at the time of the flood at all. I believe the great sin for which the Flood was caused was the rejection of God and of His authority (His law), which generally prevailed, and even among those who had professed to worship Him. Of particular note, we are told, was the law of "kinds" having been blatantly broken by the antediluvians in direct defiance of God and His order. It is my understanding that this involved the intermingling of man and beast, not man and man. But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before him. He would not suffer them to live out the days of their natural life, which would be hundreds of years. It was only a few generations back when Adam had access to that tree which was to prolong life. After his disobedience he was not suffered to eat of the tree of life and perpetuate a life of sin. In order for man to possess an endless life he must continue to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Deprived of that tree, his life would gradually wear out. {1SP 69.1} Remember, the "image of God" was not given to animals. It was an attribute of man. To deface this, a mixture of that which did not have God's image with that of God's image would be required. There are two possible ways to interpret, at this point: 1) God's image means "mankind": Therefore, mixing man with animal would deface it; OR 2) God's image means "character": Therefore, mixing children of God with children of the world would deface it. I lean towards the second, but am open to the first being also valid. Notice that in either case, "race" has no special place. The "race of Cain" was only problematic because of its character and not because of its color. The color would merely have been symbolic. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152241
05/01/13 05:46 AM
05/01/13 05:46 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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It is good that you seem to be movable in your position. I don't want to argue any more.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#152245
05/01/13 01:55 PM
05/01/13 01:55 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Everyone alive today is a descendant of Noah's family (wife, sons, and daughter-in-laws). Was it a mixed race family? Or, does everyone have the same dominant and recessive race genes? And, does it matter? "God so loved the world"?
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