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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152249
05/01/13 02:51 PM
05/01/13 02:51 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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This is how I see the descendants of Noah.
Adam---- FULL GENETICS passed to Noah- Do YOU have Adam's "full genetics?" If so, why? If not, why not? If different from Noah's case, why would Noah have had Adam's "full genetics?" Separately, if Noah had Adam's full genetics, what makes Noah NOT be a "clone" or an "identical twin" of Adam? Slight division of available DNA but nothing radical given to; Shem---- Ham---- Jafet----
They had wives who made genetic distinctions in their offspring--- The offspring of Noah's children created the three great races.
So, to your view, Noah gave his sons his genes, and the three great races were all the "fault" of the wives? Inbreeding of these three different races in isolated conformity created sub races.
Last time I checked, "inbreeding" had a very different meaning than that of interracial marriage. Perhaps you would like to clarify your particular usage of this term. In fact, it comes to my mind that "inbreeding" within a race is far more likely to promote racial distinctions than would "interbreeding" with other races. ALSO;
At the flood meteorites penetrated the upper firmament and cracked the surface of the earth.
When the covering of the upper firmament, the protective oceanic bubble-like barrier above the atmosphere, was withdrawn and came crashing down at the flood, this resulted in our earth being exposed to the sun and other cosmic sources of radiation.
Also at the flood the general crushing of rocks and the tearing of the core of the earth exposed us to other radiation producing elements like Uranium and thorium, and potassium, and their radioactive derivatives. Since this exposure was no longer filtered from its harmful elements, we were exposed to DNA altering and limiting factors and the Beta, Gamma and x rays caused great genetic variations which became more and more common.
Since the flood our race has degraded to genetic mutations which causes one in 4 children to have some kind of genetic malfunction.
Jesus needs to come soon or no flesh will be saved.
This seems of little relevance to this topic, in my opinion. Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread with this regarding the degeneration of mankind. The topic here was focused on the origination of the races, and whether or not Adam fathered them all or whether God created other humans with a separate DNA set from that of Adam in order to promote the races we have today. Blessings, Green Cochoa. GC, did I use the word FAULT? I meant what I said in the way DNA is passed to the next generation. The children of one mother and one father vary rarely have Genetic differences on the level of racial difference. If the mother and Father are Red then three children are all going to be Red. But when those children marry three different women then they are going to have different genes passed down to their offspring. For you to argue like I meant what I said to mean something else is shortsighted and argumentative. In the case of Biracial children the DNA Chromosomes of the mother and Father usually create children which look the same. It is very rare for even a white woman/ black man marriage to have children that look all black or all white, they usually are Mulatto or light skinned as a result. So if you think about this the idea that Noah and his wife had three children and one looked white and one looked black and one looked asian does not make sense. The division would have to be after the children. Also, when I used the word 'inbreeding' it was a hastily, ill chosen word. I should have used the same word Mrs White used, 'Amalgamation' because it was the intent of what I meant. The three different races "amalgamated" in different ways not inbred, because that would imply within their own families, which was also a problem but it was not the intent of what I meant.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#152253
05/02/13 07:18 AM
05/02/13 07:18 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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JSOT,
I guess you believe that blacks and whites should not marry because it would deface the image of God. So all those "mulattoes" would be "defaced" in your view, i.e. the products of "amalgamation"?
That is what sounds racist to me.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152254
05/02/13 10:12 AM
05/02/13 10:12 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Basically, JSOT, that is the concept that I think has fostered so much ill will regarding even the idea of discussing the several races. Some try to argue that we are all of just one race. I agree with them--partially. We are all of the human race. But the usage of the word can change its sense. In one sense, we are all human. Any human should therefore be of the same biblical "kind," and it should not have been a sin to marry another human. In another sense, we have "races" of mankind that have clearly differentiated in their physical characteristics. This is alluded to both in the Bible and in Mrs. White's writings, especially the latter.
This discussion was started on the question of whether or not the races could all have come from Adam. I'm not sure that question has been fully resolved, but I think there are sufficient hints given us to open up the question to some other possibilities, such as that of the intermingling of man and beast. For my part, I think God may well have adjusted Cain's genetics, and why would we not see other adjustments along the way for other reasons? You suggested the power of harmful atmospheric radiation to affect the DNA. I agree that this can and does perhaps make genetic alterations in certain individuals. However, I would be less willing to accept that these alterations were responsible for creating new races of mankind. To think such a think would be to assume some almost impossible and/or extremely racist concepts: 1) that all the adjustments took place disproportionately in one race over others (which is why not every human degenerated in the same fashion and remained more or less a homogeneous race); and/or 2) that one race or another is a mutation of the species or a result of mutation (a good piece for the start of some animated discussion, no doubt). I would not be willing to suggest either of them as possibilities.
If you think through some of the ideas you've been expressing, I think you might see where they would logically lead. Hopefully, at that point, the evidence helps you to abandon such thinking. Even if it were true (which I don't believe) that one race or another of mankind were a mutation of the species or caused by such, I would hope that no one would walk around pointing it out--for it would surely lead to some of the most racist thinking possible.
Think about it.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152255
05/02/13 11:17 AM
05/02/13 11:17 AM
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EGW stated the following in regards to the mark of Cain: Genesis 4:15 Gen_4:15. Mark of Cain.--God has given to every man his work; and if any one turns from the work that God has given him, to do the work of Satan, to defile his own body or lead another into sin, that man's work is cursed, and the brand of Cain is placed upon him. The ruin of his victim will cry unto God, as did the blood of Abel (Ibid., March 6, 1894). {1BC 1087.2}
Any man, be he minister or layman, who seeks to compel or control the reason of any other man, becomes an agent of Satan, to do his work, and in the sight of the heavenly universe he bears the mark of Cain (MS 29, 1911). {1BC 1087.3} Per the bolded and underlined section of the above quote it seems like anybody can bear the mark of Cain.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Daryl]
#152256
05/02/13 12:20 PM
05/02/13 12:20 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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EGW stated the following in regards to the mark of Cain: Genesis 4:15 Gen_4:15. Mark of Cain.--God has given to every man his work; and if any one turns from the work that God has given him, to do the work of Satan, to defile his own body or lead another into sin, that man's work is cursed, and the brand of Cain is placed upon him. The ruin of his victim will cry unto God, as did the blood of Abel (Ibid., March 6, 1894). {1BC 1087.2}
Any man, be he minister or layman, who seeks to compel or control the reason of any other man, becomes an agent of Satan, to do his work, and in the sight of the heavenly universe he bears the mark of Cain (MS 29, 1911). {1BC 1087.3} Per the bolded and underlined section of the above quote it seems like anybody can bear the mark of Cain. Daryl, That quote has already been posted in this thread and responded to, if you'll go back and read it. It is obvious, biblically, that this quote refers to a symbolic mark whereas the Bible event with Cain involved a literal one. So this quote brings an orange into a discussion of apples. Here's another quote from Mrs. White about Cain's transgression that brings a worthwhile point to this discussion. Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. They have no disposition to submit to divine authority. Their will has been exercised in revolt; and when life is ended, it is too late to turn the current of their thoughts in the opposite direction, too late to turn from transgression to obedience, from hatred to love. {GC 543.1} In sparing the life of Cain the murderer, God gave the world an example of what would be the result of permitting the sinner to live to continue a course of unbridled iniquity. Through the influence of Cain's teaching and example, multitudes of his descendants were led into sin, until "the wickedness of man was great in the earth" and "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Genesis 6:5, 11. {GC 543.2} In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3} The question might be asked: "If Cain's life was spared, why wasn't that enough?" In other words, "why did God mark Cain?" Answer that, and it is readily seen that this was a visible mark. It had to be a visible one, because it was given so that others, upon seeing it, would fear to kill him. Thus, Cain's life was doubly spared--first from God, and second from man. God was merciful in order to teach the universe the results of permitting sin. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#152261
05/02/13 03:30 PM
05/02/13 03:30 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,431
Midland
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It is good that you seem to be movable in your position. I don't want to argue any more. I noticed that too. But there was one special event that I believe added or adjusted genetic information after the original creation--Cain's curse.... According to that quote, Cain and his descendants were the ones responsible for bringing God to the point of destroying sinners in the Flood....
I believe that God made Cain dark, Ham's son Canaan received the curse of Noah and of God, I believe their color goes back to Cain.
God did not curse another person making him black for his father's sin.
and Green: Genesis chapter six where we are expressly told that the sons of God looked upon the daughters of men that they were fair.
James: And saw that they were fair, but they were black? You don't realise that you just proved your theory is wrong.
Green: Please quote where I said that the descendants of Seth were white.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: kland]
#152271
05/02/13 11:41 PM
05/02/13 11:41 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Kland,
"Fair," as in "my fair lady," used to mean simply "beautiful." It has taken on a more modern meaning of "light" or "white." In any case, when I used the word, I was but quoting it from the Bible's own translation, which was done centuries ago when the word still meant "beautiful." I already explained here that the Hebrew does not indicate any color.
As for yours and JSOT's understanding of my position having changed, I'm glad I'm finally able to make myself more clear. I don't always manage to explain things well the first time around, so it may appear to you that my position has changed when your understanding of it has been updated.
God bless,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152277
05/03/13 07:01 AM
05/03/13 07:01 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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JSOT,
I guess you believe that blacks and whites should not marry because it would deface the image of God. So all those "mulattoes" would be "defaced" in your view, i.e. the products of "amalgamation"?
That is what sounds racist to me.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. WHAT? This is the greatest stretch of the imagination that I have ever heard. And why are you putting words into my mouth by putting "defaced" in quotation marks? Show me where I said that. This would be suitable grounds for a libel case in the world of journalism. I suppose if you knew me these words would have never come out of your mouth or from your mind. I am the greatest supporter of equal rights other than our creator then you will ever meet. My wife is Asian and I come the greatest line of bigots you could ever imagine. You have no idea what I have gone through in this life. I would say how dare you, but I won't because I actually think you are a truly devoted man. But you should be careful how you judge me. That is not how I or Mrs White was using the term 'amalgamation', it is not derogatory, it simply means to mix one race with another. I actually believe in usually results in F1 hybrids in genetic terms. An alpha male from one race married to an alpha female from another usually creates beautiful, intelligent, and strong children. But if you want to play the race game with me, I'll just state that I am less inclined to think on those terms then you obviously are. But what strikes me is how you seem to be striking against our SDA prophet Mrs White... She didn't mean the term amalgamation the way you cited either so why are playing against her here? Are you saying you are against what she present in our doctrines on this subject?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Daryl]
#152278
05/03/13 07:03 AM
05/03/13 07:03 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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EGW stated the following in regards to the mark of Cain: Genesis 4:15 Gen_4:15. Mark of Cain.--God has given to every man his work; and if any one turns from the work that God has given him, to do the work of Satan, to defile his own body or lead another into sin, that man's work is cursed, and the brand of Cain is placed upon him. The ruin of his victim will cry unto God, as did the blood of Abel (Ibid., March 6, 1894). {1BC 1087.2}
Any man, be he minister or layman, who seeks to compel or control the reason of any other man, becomes an agent of Satan, to do his work, and in the sight of the heavenly universe he bears the mark of Cain (MS 29, 1911). {1BC 1087.3} Per the bolded and underlined section of the above quote it seems like anybody can bear the mark of Cain. Amen, this is exactly what my God has shown me and in perfect harmony with what I stated earlier, soundly resolved in my mind.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Question on creation of man
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152292
05/03/13 02:49 PM
05/03/13 02:49 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,431
Midland
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Kland,
"Fair," as in "my fair lady," used to mean simply "beautiful." You mean to tell me that James was misusing the sense of the word and putting into it something which wasn't there? And that he shouldn't do such things? Good Advice. "Blessings".
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