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Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? #152769
06/01/13 01:23 PM
06/01/13 01:23 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Jesus came across someone who asked this same question: "And behold, one came and said unto Him, 'Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may eternal life?' And He said unto him, 'Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into life, is it not necessary that we obey God? Is it not necessary that we keep His commandments?

So what was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler..."20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unsaved people cannot truly obey God. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unsaved people can’t obey. Saved people will obey.

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Rick H] #152772
06/01/13 03:22 PM
06/01/13 03:22 PM
APL  Offline
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But to pray in Christ's name means much. It means that we are to accept His character, manifest His spirit, and work His works. The Saviour's promise is given on condition. "If ye love Me," He says, "keep My commandments." He saves men, not in sin, but from sin; and those who love Him will show their love by obedience. {DA 668.2}

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: APL] #152773
06/01/13 05:36 PM
06/01/13 05:36 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
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It is so simple if you only study. 1 John 1:9 is so clear, how can anyone do otherwise and expect to live?


Harold T.
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Rick H] #152783
06/02/13 01:03 AM
06/02/13 01:03 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rick H
The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unsaved people can’t obey. Saved people will obey.

Obedience is the condition of salvation not in the sense that it is the basis of salvation, but that's how real salvation looks like. IOW, obedience does not derive salvation, obedience describes salvation.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: asygo] #152784
06/02/13 02:26 AM
06/02/13 02:26 AM
asygo  Offline
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I wrote something on the Rich Young Ruler years ago. You can get I here: http://assortedramblings.weebly.com/lessons-from-the-rich-young-ruler.html. The website has better formatting, but I'll paste the text below.

Lessons From the Rich Young Ruler

Matthew 19:16-22
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Mark 10:17-22
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Luke 18:18-23
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

Notice that when the man asked what was required to inherit eternal life, Jesus starts by pointing out that ONLY God is good. In Matthew's account, the man asked, "What good thing shall I do...?" And Christ's response was to get the man to take his eyes off himself to find good, and look to God, the ONLY place we can find good. The first step toward life is to LOOK AT CHRIST.

Christ continues, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments," and gives a list of commands from the Old Testament. The question was, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Christ answered by giving a list of commandments. Was He not paying attention to the question? Did He really mean to say that keeping the commandments has something to do with receiving eternal life? Yes, that is what He said.

But how does that reconcile with the first part of His answer, that only God is good? The key is to realize that our keeping of the commandments does not, and cannot, make us good. Even if we kept all the commandments all the time, which is what God requires, it still does not make us good. Note Christ's words, "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." (Luke 17:10) These are good commands from our good God, who only has our good in mind. And Jesus says that even though our keeping them does not make us good, our keeping them is needed if we are to inherit eternal life.

Then why does God require obedience if our obedience does not merit eternal life? It is a matter of ownership. "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34) "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16) Who is our master? Who is our owner? Invariably, our master is the one we obey. And we, being the servants, will reside where our master resides. If our owner is God, obeying His commands, we will live with Him. If our master is Satan, obeying his commands and disobeying God's commands, we will live and die with him.

The Rich Young Ruler has a ready answer, "All these things have I kept from my youth up." In the face of God's requirements, he can say that he has fulfilled them. But does he mean it? Does he believe it himself? He continues, "What lack I yet?" He claims to keep God's commandments, but knows in his heart that he is lacking. Jesus agrees by replying, "One thing thou lackest."

"If thou wilt be perfect," Jesus says, agreeing with the man's admission of incompleteness, "Go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven." Here, Jesus begins to reveal how the man's claim of obedience was empty. Among the commands Christ gave was, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." And now, he cites one way of obeying this command. "And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions." He claimed to love his neighbor, but when it came time to act on that professed love, he refused. He finally admits to himself and everyone else, through the undeniable evidence of his works, that his claim to obedience was a farce.

But the issue goes much deeper than that. Christ knew that this young man had great possessions, and the command addresses it. Are you willing to give up your earthly treasures for heavenly treasure? Are you willing to give up temporal pleasures for heavenly pleasure? Are you willing to give up your comfortable life for eternal life? The Rich Young Ruler had a choice to make. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." (Matthew 6:24)

But there was an even harder choice to make, because there was a bigger problem. And the words Jesus said next struck squarely at the root of the problem, "Come, take up the cross, and follow me." On one level, this was just an extension of the command to exchange his temporal wealth for eternal wealth. "And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Luke 9:58) To follow Christ meant having none of this world's comforts, but it meant having all of Heaven's promises.

But it is the next level that causes most to turn around and go home grieved. In order to follow Christ, we must "take up the cross." What does the cross mean? It did not just mean discomfort, hardship, and torture. Taking up the cross always meant an ignominious death.

Christ was telling the young man that before he could live, he must die. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." (Matthew 16:25) Moreover, this was not a one-time event. "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23) As long as we want to follow Him, we must take up our cross. If we want to follow him all the time, we must take up our cross all the time.

In what sense do we die? In what sense are we crucified? "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24) "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6) The Old Man, our flesh, the part of us that "wars against the soul" is to be crucified whenever we want to follow Christ. And the result is that we come to the place where "henceforth we should not serve sin." Of the experience of crucifying the Old Man, Paul writes, "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:20-22) "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Ephesians 4:21-24) "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:4-7) This is what Jesus wanted the Rich Young Ruler to do.

So we see that Christ's command to "take up the cross" is just a reiteration of the idea of ownership. It is just another way of saying, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

But He doesn't stop there. He continues with, "Follow me." There are several aspects of following, and we will cover just a few of them here. To follow someone means to go where he is going, or where he has gone. Jesus has gone to Heaven, and that is where we want to go. "Take up the cross, and follow me," is exactly the answer the Rich Young Ruler asked for. He wanted to know what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. Christ's answer was, "Crucify your Old Man with its fleshly lusts, and you can be with me in Heaven."

To follow someone means to do what he is doing, or what he did. Jesus testified of Himself, "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." (John 8:29) He always pleased the Father; He always obeyed. As we saw from the writings of Paul - the Apostle to the Gentiles, the great advocate of righteousness by faith - when we crucify the flesh, we rise up to walk in newness of life. When the Old Man is put to death, the New Man is born, which is "created in righteousness and true holiness." When we are freed from the slavery of sin, we become slaves of God, to obey Him. In essence, Jesus said, "When you crucify the flesh, you can be with Me in obeying God."

But the most fundamental aspect of following someone is this: We must look at the one we are following. If we are not looking, we won't know where to go. If we are not looking, we won't know what to do. Christ's command to "Follow Me," entails the first and foremost step toward gaining eternal life: LOOK AT CHRIST. Again, this is just a reiteration of what Jesus already said.

We see here a Jewish way of emphasizing a point: Say the same thing twice, in different ways. (We can find many examples in the poetic books of the Bible, such as Proverbs and Isaiah.) The Rich Young Ruler asks, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" The answer is given, "Look at God and obey Him." The young man says, "I've done that." The truth is brought out, "You have not obeyed because you do not love your neighbor as yourself." And the requirements for life are given again, "Look at God and obey Him."

Backing up a little bit, we will notice that the Rich Young Ruler did not really know what he was asking for. He asked, "What shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" He seemed to be eager to have eternal life. But what is "eternal life"? "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) To know God, the Father and the Son, is the essence of eternal life. Christ, knowing this, gave him what he asked for. "You want eternal life? Leave everything and be with Me."

Many think that eternal life is having a never-ending life. But Satan has invented the doctrine that sinners will live forever while being tortured in Hell; that's not the eternal life I want. God has so much more in mind. The eternal life that He promises is quality, not just quantity. It is a life of joy in obedience, that lasts forever. It is a never-ending life spent with Christ. "The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

By saying, "Follow Me," Jesus offered the Rich Young Ruler the opportunity to have the kind of eternal life that is truly satisfying. But the young man showed that he did not really want that kind of eternal life. He exchanged eternal life for his temporal life.

What lessons can we learn from this story? Here are some:

  • Claiming obedience to God does not necessarily mean it is true.
  • If we are to have life, we must look at Christ.
  • If we are to have life, we must crucify the Old Man and forsake sin.
  • When we crucify the Old Man, the New Man is born.
  • When we stop being Satan's slave by obeying him, we can start being God's slave by obeying Him instead.
  • Wanting to be saved does not necessarily mean being willing to do what it takes to be saved.
  • Eternal life is not just living a long time; it is living RIGHT a long time.


There is one more lesson from the Rich Young Ruler.

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions." (Mark 10:21-22)

Jesus loved the Rich Young Ruler, and His love for him led Him to say what He did: 1) He revealed the man's deficiency, and 2) He told the man how to overcome it. In His love for the young man, Christ supplied everything he needed to be saved.

But the problem was not with God's love; it was with the man's love. Did the Rich Young Ruler have love? Of course he did. But the object of his supreme love was improper. He loved God enough to go to Jesus asking what he must do to live with God forever. But he proved that he loved his possessions more than he loved God. When made to choose to be with God or with his possessions, he chose to stay with his possessions.

As usual, the issue goes deeper than that. Many of us do not need to choose between God and our possessions because we do not have substantial possessions. But we all have to choose between righteousness and sin. We can say God loves us and we love God. We can say we want righteousness and don't want sin. But like the Rich Young Ruler, regardless of our profession, our action will reveal our true choice. Regardless of what we say, what we do will reveal our true love.

Not only that, but what we do will reveal our destiny. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2Corinthians 5:10) "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12)

Clearly, it is not a matter of whether or not we have love in our hearts. The question is, Who and what do our hearts love? And that question is infallibly answered by our actions.

Do our actions testify that we are owned by God or owned by Satan? Do our actions reveal that we love righteousness or sin? Jesus said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:16) According to our fruits, what is our root? John the Baptist said, "And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Luke 3:9)

If the evidence shows that we have the wrong fruit, that we have the wrong root, that we have the wrong owner, that we have the wrong destiny, rejoice that there is still hope. All we have to do is choose today whom we will serve.

Last edited by asygo; 06/05/13 04:13 AM. Reason: Improved formatting

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: asygo] #152804
06/03/13 02:54 AM
06/03/13 02:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Thank you for posting this, Arnold. It was very good.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153082
06/10/13 01:29 AM
06/10/13 01:29 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Are we not saved by grace and judged by our works, as in obedience, or disobedience?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Daryl] #153083
06/10/13 02:30 AM
06/10/13 02:30 AM
APL  Offline
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Obedience is required. How can we obey?
Originally Posted By: EGW
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law. {AA 563.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Daryl] #153090
06/10/13 11:35 PM
06/10/13 11:35 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
Are we not saved by grace and judged by our works, as in obedience, or disobedience?

Yes, we are saved by grace. "For by grace you have been saved..." Ephesians 2:8 Grace "causes" salvation.

Yes, we are judged by our works, whether obedience or disobedience. "They were judged, each one according to his works." Revelation 20:13 Works "cause" our judgment, whether good or bad.

But what "causes" good works? IOW, what makes us obey? "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age..." Titus 2:11-12 Grace causes obedience.

Both obedience and salvation result from the same cause - grace. There is a strong correlation between obedience and salvation, but the relationship is not causal.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: asygo] #153091
06/11/13 02:02 AM
06/11/13 02:02 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
There is a strong correlation between obedience and salvation
Yes! So strong, that the purpose of the plan of salvation is to restore man back to where he can and will obey the law. This is done by grace, and grace as the Bible defines it, which is His knowledge of how to solve the problem. "The essence of the gospel is restoration".


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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