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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: asygo]
#153189
06/14/13 01:02 AM
06/14/13 01:02 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Western, USA
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So I guess you are saying the sins are blotted out from heaven. What do you think blotting out of sin is, and what is actually forgotten?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: APL]
#153202
06/15/13 03:58 AM
06/15/13 03:58 AM
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There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. {CT 20.2} AMEN Do "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" count as sin? I think so. Did Enoch have them when he was translated? I think so.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: asygo]
#153207
06/15/13 04:57 AM
06/15/13 04:57 AM
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The tendencies are caused by sin - they are heredity. Jesus shared our heredity, but never participated in its sin. For Enoch to be in the presence of God, he would have had to have sin removed. Same for Moses and Elijah. What did God tell Moses? No man can see my face and live! Imposed penalty? Nope. Intrinsic. When we are change,
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The only way to see Him, is to be like Him. And we can only be like Him by what He does for us. By His knowledge, His grace, He can save us, heal us, if we want Him.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: asygo]
#153215
06/15/13 10:50 AM
06/15/13 10:50 AM
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There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. {CT 20.2} AMEN Do "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" count as sin? I think so. Did Enoch have them when he was translated? I think so. No, I would disagree. Sin is the action on the temptation when we possess it not when Satan poses it. God warned Cain that sin was at his door and he could have turned away from it and not have sinned, but he let it fester till he had killed Abel long before the actual blow.
Last edited by Rick H; 06/15/13 10:54 AM.
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: APL]
#153224
06/15/13 10:56 PM
06/15/13 10:56 PM
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The tendencies are caused by sin - they are heredity. Jesus shared our heredity, but never participated in its sin. So "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" are only hereditary? Cultivated tendencies to evil are not hereditary. And Jesus had these "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil"? I disagree.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: APL]
#153225
06/15/13 10:59 PM
06/15/13 10:59 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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For Enoch to be in the presence of God, he would have had to have sin removed. Same for Moses and Elijah. There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. {CT 20.2}So you're saying that Enoch, Moses, and Elijah no longer had "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" upon translation?
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: Rick H]
#153228
06/16/13 12:20 AM
06/16/13 12:20 AM
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Do "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" count as sin? I think so.
Did Enoch have them when he was translated? I think so. No, I would disagree. Sin is the action on the temptation when we possess it not when Satan poses it. The quote is not talking about Satan's temptations. It's talking about "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" - internal temptations. Did Jesus have "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil"?
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: APL]
#153238
06/16/13 05:17 AM
06/16/13 05:17 AM
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The tendencies are caused by sin - they are heredity. Jesus shared our heredity, but never participated in its sin. For Enoch to be in the presence of God, he would have had to have sin removed. Same for Moses and Elijah. What did God tell Moses? No man can see my face and live! Imposed penalty? Nope. Intrinsic. When we are change,
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The only way to see Him, is to be like Him. And we can only be like Him by what He does for us. By His knowledge, His grace, He can save us, heal us, if we want Him. This is dangerous heresy, though you may be oblivious to what you are saying/implying. This theory is highly dangerous, and many have accepted it to their eternal damnation. I grieve to think people should accept such falsehood. Let me make three points: 1) Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. (EGW) Not every one who says "Lord, Lord!" will be saved. (Jesus) We can "want Him" all the way to hell. Wanting is no antidote for sin, and no escape from it. We must do more than "want." 2) We might be changed in our physical form when we are transfigured before Christ at His coming, but our character is not changed. Those who assume they must wait until Christ comes to receive a Heaven-worthy character are duping themselves--to their eternal loss. Two quotes to support this: "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." It is those that have done good who will come forth to the resurrection of life. The question of most importance to us is, How can we do good? The greatest good that we can do is to help one another to become earnest followers of Christ, and in the day of God we shall be able to render no excuse for not doing good to those around us. We are to love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves, and the Lord Jesus Christ has provided means by which we may fulfill the conditions upon which we may obtain eternal life. We cannot do evil, and work wickedness, and yet stand justified before God at last. Now is our day of probation, and we are now to perfect characters that will stand the test of the judgment. When Christ comes, there is to be no change of character; this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption; and those who are alive and remain upon the earth will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, if their characters are blameless and pure. Transformation of character must take place during the precious hours of probation. {ST, August 29, 1892 par. 1} And... Our words and actions in the home bear testimony to our true character, and they are recorded in the books of heaven. The daily acts of life tell the measure and mould of our disposition and character. Where there is a lack of home religion, a profession of faith is valueless. Then let no unkind words fall from the lips of those who compose the home circle. Make the atmosphere fragrant with tender thoughtfulness of others. Only those will enter heaven who in probationary time have formed a character that breathes a heavenly influence. The saint in heaven must first be a saint upon earth. The habits of speech, the character of our actions, put a mould upon us; and that which we cultivate in our association with others in this life, goes down into the grave with us, and will be unchanged when we come up from the grave. Many are deceiving themselves by thinking that the character will be transformed at the coming of Christ; but there will be no conversion of heart at his appearing. Our defects of character must here be repented of, and through the grace of Christ we must overcome them while probation shall last. This is the place for fitting up for the family above. {ST, November 14, 1892 par. 8} 3) God does not do it all for us. We must do our part. "God works, and man works." (EGW) Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153241
06/16/13 06:26 AM
06/16/13 06:26 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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You call it heresy but do not say what is the heresy. I'm sure I've quoted the following before on this forum. If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas.{2SM 32.2} And from the science, I can say an unequivocal AMEN. Do you see horror in the flesh Green? You say there is no sin in the flesh, so how is there any horror in the flesh? The Scriptures teach us to seek for the sanctification to God of body, soul, and spirit. In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul. {2SM 32.3} When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). . . . {2SM 33.3} Note - the results are no wholly removed until the second coming. This results must also be removed. What is removed? The science has good data on this. NOTE - the science has good data on what pushes us to have the tendencies to sin. Christ who came in the same sinful (full of sin) flesh that we have developed a perfect character. He was able to quiet all the temptations, and never participated in the sin of the flesh. "The prince of this world cometh," said Jesus, "and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. There was in Him nothing that responded to Satan's sophistry. {DA 123.3} 3) God does not do it all for us. We must do our part. "God works, and man works." (EGW) So it is not just a legality on which we are saved, there is hard work to do. And as I've quoted before from Steps to Christ, it is the hardest battle ever fought, the battle against self.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
[Re: APL]
#153243
06/16/13 06:34 AM
06/16/13 06:34 AM
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The heresy that was lurking just below the statements you were making in your prior post, APL, was simply this concept that we cannot have perfect characters before Christ's coming and the transfiguration that will take place at that time. Many believe this heresy. I cannot.
You did not come out and say this in clear words, but your thoughts appeared to be trending in that direction. Let none be deceived on this matter. It is our opportunity to prepare for heaven NOW. We need not wait for either the latter rain or for the transfiguration at Christ's coming to be perfect.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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