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Re: What saves us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153246
06/16/13 06:46 AM
06/16/13 06:46 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

Put this together with "sin will destroy them" and we'll have a problem. Either God's glory is sin, or the truth is not as simple as some would like.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What saves us? [Re: asygo] #153249
06/16/13 07:06 AM
06/16/13 07:06 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

Put this together with "sin will destroy them" and we'll have a problem. Either God's glory is sin, or the truth is not as simple as some would like.
Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Why are they destroyed?
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. {DA 107.4}

The same light the gives life to the righteous, destroys the wicked. Why? SIN. Sin destroys them.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153251
06/16/13 07:14 AM
06/16/13 07:14 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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God destroys sin. The sinners who have sin are thus destroyed by God along with it.

Simple.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What saves us? [Re: asygo] #153252
06/16/13 07:16 AM
06/16/13 07:16 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
And what about that little mention of "sin and sinners will perish?" Why is sin mentioned first? What would happen to APL's poor theory if sin were destroyed before sinners? Hmmm....I guess the sinners would not then be able to be destroyed by sin, right? Because sin would already be extinct.


Your question is condescending, but I'll answer, the truth is that if you let God destroy sin in you, then yes, you will live. IF you do not let God destroy the sin in you, if you cling to it, then the sin will destroy you.

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. {DA 107.4} The natural consequences of keeping sin, death.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153253
06/16/13 07:22 AM
06/16/13 07:22 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Indeed.

It's a bit like alcohol. Alcohol, like sin, burns in the presence of fire. God's presence consumes sin like fire consumes alcohol.

Now, we are like vessels of water. If we put alcohol into the water, it will be ignitable and burn. Without alcohol, it will not burn.

But the Fire is God. God does the burning.

If we allow God to consume the dross out of our character, yes, there will be nothing left to burn. We are then safe.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What saves us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153259
06/16/13 07:56 AM
06/16/13 07:56 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
God does the burning.
And the righteous can live in this fire. Why? No sin.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153260
06/16/13 08:22 AM
06/16/13 08:22 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
God does the burning.
And the righteous can live in this fire. Why? No sin.

Absolutely.

As it says in Psalm 1:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


Our God is a consuming fire. The chaff are destroyed. The gold is untouched. The same fire that slew the men who threw in the three Hebrew worthies was powerless to touch them. God is the Fire who will destroy sin and sinners in the end and leave only a clean and pure universe for ever after.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What saves us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153265
06/16/13 04:56 PM
06/16/13 04:56 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
So it is not the intrinsic nature of God to kill, but it is sin that causes the death, no sin, no death. It is not an imposed penalty, it is the natural consequences of sin. And there is good science as to why this happens, but I won't go there.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153266
06/16/13 06:18 PM
06/16/13 06:18 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
it is sin that causes the death

Sin per se doesn't cause death. Satan and his angels would never die if they didn't have to face the glory of God - the light of His holiness and love. (Of course they would die if God ceased to sustain their lives - but the same would happen to the heavenly angels, or to any other unfallen creature.) So the second death isn't caused by a single factor, but by two: the glory of God + sin. Neither of them isolately causes death.

Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #153269
06/16/13 07:04 PM
06/16/13 07:04 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
But of course that is not the way God runs the universe. So yes, it is Sin that causes death. No sin, no death.

EGW:God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

So blink, we can turn off the sinner, they are gone. But no, we have to go further. We need to punish the sinner, make them suffer, but no longer than they deserve. God inflicts this on sinners? Really? For what purpose. Do scare the rest of the universe into submission? NO. Sin is what causes this. Yes in God's presence, but this is the natural result of sin. Sinners destroy themselves by sin, Hosea 13:9.

Sin is suicide.
Proverbs 8:36 But he that sins against me wrongs his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

Ezekiel 33:10-11 Therefore, O you son of man, speak to the house of Israel; Thus you speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be on us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

This case is placed on record for our benefit. Just what took place in Pharaoh's heart will take place in every soul that neglects to cherish the light and walk promptly in its rays. God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. When a person once neglects to heed the invitations, reproofs, and warnings of the Spirit of God, his conscience becomes seared, and the next time he is admonished, it will be more difficult to yield obedience than before. And thus with every repetition. Conscience is the voice of God, heard amid the conflict of human passions; when it is resisted, the Spirit of God is grieved. {5T 120.1}

We want all to understand how the soul is destroyed. It is not that God sends out a decree that man shall not be saved. He does not throw a darkness before the eyes which cannot be penetrated. But man at first resists a motion of the Spirit of God, and, having once resisted, it is less difficult to do so the second time, less the third, and far less the fourth. Then comes the harvest to be reaped from the seed of unbelief and resistance. Oh what a harvest of sinful indulgences is preparing for the sickle! {5T 120.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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