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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Gregory]
#153476
06/21/13 09:52 PM
06/21/13 09:52 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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I wonder if it wasn't evangelist E E Cleveland I once heard say he hoped we could fill our churches with smokers. . . at a time when many felt we should not let them inside until they were non-smokers.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Johann]
#153477
06/22/13 12:11 AM
06/22/13 12:11 AM
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OP
SDA Chaplain Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
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An age-old question has surfaced here: How perfect does one have to be before can attend a SDA service. This question is not talking about membership. It is not talking about being a congregational leader. It is simply sitting in a seat in a SDA service.
The second question is: What is the purpose of a Sabbath service? Is it to comfort the members? Is it to convert sinners? Is it to evangelize. NOTE: My asking the question does not presuppose an answer. Every congregation should have dwelt with these questions and have an answer for what they want to do.
Last edited by Gregory; 06/22/13 12:14 AM.
Gregory May God's will be done.
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Gregory]
#153481
06/22/13 01:26 AM
06/22/13 01:26 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Green, if you will permit me to slight change what EGW said, here is something to think about: Go out into the riff-raff, and compel them to come in," is Christ's command, "that My house may be filled." There is a difference between going and saying to someone in the world "We welcome you to our church," and saying to the world, "we welcome gays, lesbians, fat people, smokers, alcoholics, murderers, pedophiles, etc. to our church." I see the difference. Perhaps others do not. You are entitled to your viewpoints. I would far rather say to a lost and dying world, including to all of that "riff-raff," something like "Jesus loves you and we would cherish the opportunity of welcoming you into fellowship with us and with Him." Focus on JESUS. People want to come to church to find God. They do not want to come to church to find a bunch of godless people. If they do want to come to church just to find other people like themselves, they certainly will find such, but they may well miss out on finding God. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153483
06/22/13 01:42 AM
06/22/13 01:42 AM
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OP
SDA Chaplain Active Member 2022
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
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There is a difference between going and saying to someone in the world "We welcome you to our church," and saying to the world, "we welcome . . . murderers, pedophiles, etc. to our church." Green: You have erected a "straw man" of your own design. The Bulletin did not mention either murderers or pedophiles. Please be a bit more accurate in your comments. Yes, I know that you did not directly say that it did mention such. But, the major part of your comment was directed against what the bulletin did say. By including murders and pedophiles, one might think that such were included in the bulletin. I would appreciate a larger degree of accuracy.
Gregory May God's will be done.
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Gregory]
#153485
06/22/13 01:48 AM
06/22/13 01:48 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I wasn't attempting to say everything the same as the bulleting, Gregory. I was giving my own example.
Do you not welcome murderers and pedophiles to your church? Would you see any problem with announcing to them that they were welcome.
This is precisely why I included them in the list--for the express purpose of clarifying my position. I personally do not see much difference between these types of sins and the ones already mentioned in the bulletin. Sin is sin, and sinners are sinners. Cannot God save anyone?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153487
06/22/13 02:50 AM
06/22/13 02:50 AM
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OP
SDA Chaplain Active Member 2022
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
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As has been stated in a previous post, which I assume you read; The difference is the physical safety of the children and adults.
If you do not see any difference between murderers, pedophiles and those mentioned in the bulletin I am astounded. The bulletin mentioned fat people. you equate them with one who has murdered another! Astounding! You do not distinguish between one who is homosexual (note I did not, as did not the bulletin, say a practicing homosexual) and a murderer, again, I am astounded.
Gregory May God's will be done.
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Gregory]
#153494
06/22/13 11:08 AM
06/22/13 11:08 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Did I say I was speaking of practicing murderers or pedophiles? We already had some things to say regarding pedophiles, but let's look more at the "murderers." How many "murderers" were church members in the Bible? This might be interesting: Moses David Absalom Abimilech Levi Simeon Samson Ehud Jael Joab Elijah Samuel King Saul Saul/Paul Most of the scribes and pharisees I'm sure this comes short of a full list, but how many of the above would you, Gregory, have excluded from church fellowship? Three of them were Bible authors, and not only this, they represent the most prolific authors of the Bible! The bulletin mentioned fat people. you equate them with one who has murdered another! Astounding! Is it? The victims of a depraved appetite, goaded on by Satan's continual temptations, will seek indulgence at the expense of health and even life, and will go to the bar of God as self-murderers. ... {Con 77.1}
Thousands have indulged their perverted appetites, have eaten a good meal, as they called it, and as the result, have brought on a fever, or some other acute disease, and certain death. That was enjoyment purchased at immense cost. Yet many have done this, and these self-murderers have been eulogized by their friends and the minister, and carried directly to heaven at their death. What a thought! Gluttons in heaven! No, no; such will never enter the pearly gates of the golden city of God. Such will never be exalted to the right hand of Jesus, the precious Saviour, the suffering Man of Calvary, whose life was one of constant self-denial and sacrifice. There is a place appointed for all such among the unworthy, who can have no part in the better life, the immortal inheritance. {CD 125.3} Those who cannot control their appetites are murderers-- practicing ones. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153498
06/22/13 12:20 PM
06/22/13 12:20 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Now, as to the pedophiles, I do not see anything wrong with outright refusing them entrance into the church. God can forgive, but I agree with you, Gregory, that we need to regard the safety of our weaker church members. I also base this stance upon Mrs. White's position relative to adulterers and cases of incest. Interestingly, the bulletin welcomed several classes which might fall into one of these categories, albeit they are not specifically mentioned. (For example, the announcement mentions those recently released from jail, gay, and divorced.) Pedophiles/incestuous people should be refused fellowship. No Help for This Man. [THE WHITE ESTATE HAS NO FIRM DOCUMENTATION ON THE NATURE OF E'S TRANSGRESSION, BUT ARTHUR L. WHITE RECALLS HEARING HIS FATHER, W. C. WHITE, REFER TO IT AS A PARTICULARLY REVOLTING CASE OF INCEST.] It is impossible for E to be fellowshiped by the church of God. He has placed himself where he cannot be helped by the church, where he can have no communion with, nor voice in, the church. He has placed himself there in the face of light and truth. He has stubbornly chosen his own course, and refused to listen to reproof. He has followed the inclinations of his corrupt heart, has violated the holy law of God, and has disgraced the cause of present truth. {TSB 249.4}
If he repents ever so heartily, the church must let his case alone. If he goes to heaven, it must be alone, without the fellowship of the church. A standing rebuke from God and the church must ever rest upon him that the standard of morality be not lowered to the very dust.--1T 215. {TSB 250.1} Adulterers may be refused fellowship with us. Suspension From the Church for Adulterers. Those who break the seventh commandment should be suspended from the church, and not have its fellowship nor the privileges of the house of God. Said the angel, "This is not a sin of ignorance. It is a knowing sin and will receive the awful visitation of God, whether he who commits it be old or young." {TSB 248.4} The "may" here would be used on account of this quote addressing only church members who commit adultery, and not those from outside who may have done this before becoming a member. But how many of our churches follow these instructions from God? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153500
06/22/13 01:43 PM
06/22/13 01:43 PM
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OP
SDA Chaplain Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
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Green: I can accept your statements of your personal position on the matter under discussion here. But, your published statements strike at the very heart of evangelism which is one of the two missions given to the Church in End Time by God. Your building “Straw Men” and twisting the comments of EGW does not negate that. I have been thinking as to how I might rewrite the Bulletin comment to which you strongly object. Of course it is tongue in check, but here it is: We the Governing Board of the Anytown Seventh-day Adventist Church believe it is necessary to make as public statement as to the people whom we wish to serve in this, our community. First, as good citizens, we believe that we should comply with the statutes that govern the lives of our people. Therefore, in compliance with the antidiscrimination laws, all who wish to visit us for a lawful purpose are permitted to come on our property, enter our building and observe our services. As long as people do not act in a disruptive manner, they will not be charged with trespass.
Secondly, while all of the above are permitted entry onto our property, there are certain people whom we wish to serve and will be welcomed into our congregational services. Those we will welcome include: People in a stable committed marital relationship. Those in the upper 25% of the economic scale. Those matured in their life experiences and are at least 35 years of age. A Body Mass Index of 22 or better. Professional musicians who have specialized in either classical or religious music. Religious moderates who are not extreme. People who earn their living in education, health care and banking. The scientific literate. Those who have published their written works. Those who do not need cosmetic enhancement of their person. Survivors who have conquered. Those who eat a balanced, healthy diet. Masters of the English language as used in the United States. Professional artists who produce socially acceptable media. Economic conservatives. Political moderates. Those who have never run for political office. People who have personally provided community service. Parents who have birthed no more than one child—or two per couple. Well, this should provide for some thought. Again, I am writing tongue in check.
Gregory May God's will be done.
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Re: Church Bulletin Welcome
[Re: Gregory]
#153503
06/22/13 02:54 PM
06/22/13 02:54 PM
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OP
SDA Chaplain Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
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As EGW has said: The indolent, the tobacco devotees, and liquor drinkers are many. but the truth must go to them. . . . Our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in present truth must not abide alone with those who receive Christ. Christ died to save the world, and we are to work more zealously in acting our part. We are to look upon fallen humanity as our field. Evangelism page 566
Gregory May God's will be done.
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