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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15387
09/05/05 01:24 AM
09/05/05 01:24 AM
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Excellent questions, Mark. I'll respond a little at a time, so the posts won't be too long. (By the way, if you have Shades of Grace by Ty Gibson you may wish to look around page 56, which deals with the theme of selfishness and life, which I'll touch on later). First of all, regarding the fig tree, this is a bit of the commentary from the Desire of Ages: quote:
The cursing of the fig tree was an acted parable. That barren tree, flaunting its pretentious foliage in the very face of Christ, was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The Saviour desired to make plain to His disciples the cause and the certainty of Israel's doom. For this purpose He invested the tree with moral qualities, and made it the expositor of divine truth (DA 582)
This brings us back to the destruction of Jerusalem. I've quoted from GC 35-37 many times, as I believe this is probably the clearest description of the principles involved in the destruction of the wicked. Here's a small portion:
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}
These were the principles the cursing of the fig tree were designed to teach; the same principles we've been seeing all along. God's spirit, finally and persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn, and ruin results.
Here's some more of the description of the cursing of the fig tree.
quote:
They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}
The fig tree was dried up from the roots, not blasted from above, like from a bold of lightening, but rather in a way showing that grace was being withheld; the fig tree "showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them." The principle I have been suggesting which leads to destruction is that God removes His sustaining/protecting hand, and the cursing of the fig tree illustrates this principle perfectly.
Notice that the exact same principle is enunciated as in the other examples we have looked at, including the destruction of the Egyptions, the destruction of Jerusalem, the destruction of the wicked, the flood; whatever disaster we have looked at, in every case we have the quote: "O Israel, thou has destroyed theyself."
Here's a bit more:
quote:
The warning is for all time. Christ's act in cursing the tree which His own power had created stands as a warning to all churches and to all Christians. No one can live the law of God without ministering to others. But there are many who do not live out Christ's merciful, unselfish life.
Christ said if we would gain eternal life, we must lose our life. Unless a grain of wheat falls to the earth, it dies alone. If we die to self, we will live. But if we live for self alone, we will die eternally. This is not an arbitrary act on the part of God, but the outworking of the principle that governs God's universe. Self-sacrificing love = life eternal. Selfishness = eternal death. This is the lesson of the fig tree.
As the Spirit of Prophesy points out, Christ was only apparently acting differently than at other times in His ministry, so this episode cannot be used as an exception to the rest of Christ's life. Even here He was acting according to the same principles He acted according to all the time. His purpose was to reveal the character of His Father; that of a Restorer, not Destroyer.
"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." (CH 168)
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15388
09/05/05 03:00 AM
09/05/05 03:00 AM
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Mark:Regarding David’s impassioned pleas for vengeance, are you sure you are ready to jettison all that scripture? Tom:According to the Spirit of Prophesy, "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." 8T 286. So this means whatever it is you think you see in David in the Psalms, we should see in Christ's life, correct? So I would ask you where you see whatever it is you are seeing in David in Christ's life. David cannot trump Christ. Mark:Christ I believe inspired it by the Holy Spirit. David calls out to God rather than taking matters into his own hands, because, as scripture says, ‘Vengeance is Mine’. Tom:Here is the probably the clearest Scripture which discusses "vengeance is mine." quote:
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 Therefore if your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom. 14:21)
This is quoting from the Sermon on the Mount, which says,
quote:
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:38-48)
Here is what EGW writes regarding this passage:
quote:
The whole earthly life of Jesus was a manifestation of this principle. It was to bring the bread of life to His enemies that our Saviour left His home in heaven. Though calumny and persecution were heaped upon Him from the cradle to the grave, they called forth from Him only the expression of forgiving love. Through the prophet Isaiah He says, "I gave My back to the smiters, and My cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not My face from shame and spitting." "He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth." Isaiah 50:6; 53:7. And from the cross of Calvary there come down through the ages His prayer for His murderers and the message of hope to the dying thief. {MB 71.1}
The principle is that evil is to be overcome by good. Instead of repaying evil for evil, God repays evil with good. Evil is actually defeated by good! This is because sin is suicidal. It is predicated on a principle which cannot survive, which DA 764 points out.
To summarize, the principle of vengeance is one of overcoming evil with good, of turning the other cheek, giving the shirt off one's back, going the extra mile. The beauty of God's government is that it actually will overcome evil according to its principles of love, mercy and truth. As the Spirit of Prophesy puts it in DA 108, "The light of the glory of God [i.e. the truth of His wonderful character], which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked." (comment in bracket mine)
Mark: In Revelation Christ reveals Himself again as having a sword that brings punishment on the wicked.
Tom:Here is an expalnation of a Scripture which combines the warlike theme you have suggested with the word of God theme, which is what the sword represents (Heb. 4:12; Eph. 6:17).
quote:
Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. (GC 37)
This passage seems to me to explain perfectly the idea of Christ's sword in Revelation. We can explore this in more detail if you wish.
Mark:It is true that the wicked reap what they sow, but it is ultimately God through Christ who enforces His law.
Tom:God enforces His law by allowing the results of sin to take place. This is His strange act. The description is given here:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
The GC 37 quote also brings out the same principle. By a life of sin, those who reject God's grace form characters so out of harmony with Him that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire. We also note from DA 108 that it is the same thing which gives life to the righteous (i.e. the light of the glory of God) which slays the wicked, making it clear that it really is the actions of the wicked which cause their demise, not some arbitrary enforcement on the part of God.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15389
09/05/05 03:10 AM
09/05/05 03:10 AM
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Mark:You say that the justice of God is his mercy and grace. This is confusion. The Bible does not equate the two. Tom:Let's take a look at some Scriptures to see. quote:
"Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow". (Isaiah 1:17)
quote:
"This is what the LORD says: "`Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed" (Jeremiah 21:12)
quote:
"This is what the LORD Almighty says: `Administer true justice: show mercy and compassion to one another. (Zechariah 7:9)
quote:
"Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice".( Isaiah 30:18)
What we see from the above Scriptures is that justice in Scripture involves setting things right. The way that God sets things right is by mercy and compassion. There's no confusion here!
Mark:They both exist in the character of God. God is love. Love is the harmonious blending of justice and mercy. In order to manifest what mercy is, there must be justice. Justice defines what a person is fairly entitled to. In the cases of the redeemed, the glory of God is revealed in His mercy by contrasting what the person is entitled to with what they actually receive.
Tom:So in the case of the redeemed, God can be unjust? Is that the idea? That seems to be what you are saying, because you write that in the case of the redeemed by contrasing what they actually receive to what they are entitled to.
Mark:In contrast, the wicked reject the mercy of God. And so they receive His justice.
Tom:But God is just to the wicked. So if we disregard God's law, we will be treated justly. But if we don't, we won't be. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
I believe God is just and merciful to everybody, whether or not they reject His mercy. What people really do when they reject God's mercy is to substitue their own justice for His. John has written quite a bit about this theme. Maybe he'll jump in here.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15390
09/05/05 11:58 AM
09/05/05 11:58 AM
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quote:
Actually I'm a bit confused as to the point you were wishing to make, since neither the body nor the soul can be destroyed without destroying the other.
Tom,
My point is that Ellen White is speaking here about pharao and how he destroyed his own soul by committing the sin against the Holy Spirit. It was his fault that the land was devastated, that his first-born and the first-born of all the families in his kingdom died, that his army was killed in the sea. All this was his fault, yet he himself did not die. Ellen White is speaking of his spiritual destruction, not of his physical destruction. When Ellen White says that God destroys no man, she is referring to resistance to the light (spiritual self-destruction), not to physical destruction.
quote:
Tom:The MH 416 quote I cited earlier brings this out. So do the Psalms and Job. For example, God set the limit to how far the waters may advance. New Orleans is but a small measure of how powerful the forces of nature are from which God constantly protects us. Consider what a comet or large asteroid would do if it collided with this planet. Or if the sun veered off course. Many examples could be given.
God set limits to the sea at Creation, and established the orbits of the heavenly bodies when He created them. Everything in the whole universe, fallen or unfallen, depends on God’s sustaining power. If God has to protect us from nature, God has to protect the unfallen worlds too. If God removes His hand, their planets and stars will also divert from their orbits, and if they have a sea, it is also God who fixes its limits. There, in the same way as here, it is by God’s power that vegetation flourishes. So I still see no evidence that God has to protect us from nature. What Ellen White says is that God limits Satan’s destructive manipulation of nature.
quote:
It's not a matter of a one time request, but of a consistent, persistent resistance of the wooing of God's Spirit.
God’s departure from an individual or from a nation is one thing, physical destruction is another thing. God departed from pharao, as I pointed out, but pharao himself wasn’t physically destroyed. Probably he died later in consequence of his own wrong choices. Saul, and later the israelites at the destruction of Jerusalem, suffered and died because of their own subsequent choices. But in the case of the flood, Sodom, the Egyptian army, you claim that God removed His protection and these people were immediately destroyed (and of course God knew that this was going to happen). Therefore, I just can’t see removing the reinforcement system as being in any way better than opening the floodgates.
God only employs physical destruction when He is forced to do this for the protection of others.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15391
09/05/05 02:41 PM
09/05/05 02:41 PM
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quote:
So the short version of the long answer to your question is that God does not do bad things because it is contrary to His character. We have enough evidence regarding His character to know that when He is presented as doing something bad it means He is permitting the bad thing to happen.
Tom, the Bible and the SOP clearly teach that God caused the Flood that killed millions of unsaved sinners. He did not permit it. Instead, He caused it. Plain and simple. No amount of arguing is going to change the facts.
In cases where God permits others (evil angels, holy angels, or human beings) to fulfill His will, it doesn't change the facts one iota. Whether God causes or permits death, disease, or destruction to befall unsaved sinners - He is ultimately and intimately responsible. The honor and glory belongs to Him alone.
Somehow, some way His "strange acts" are righteous and altogether holy. The sooner we as a church can accept this fact the sooner Jesus can return in glory and power "in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thes 1:8.
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15392
09/05/05 06:29 PM
09/05/05 06:29 PM
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R:My point is that Ellen White is speaking here about pharao and how he destroyed his own soul by committing the sin against the Holy Spirit. It was his fault that the land was devastated, that his first-born and the first-born of all the families in his kingdom died, that his army was killed in the sea. All this was his fault, yet he himself did not die. Tom:Didn't he die in the Red Sea? R:Ellen White is speaking of his spiritual destruction, not of his physical destruction. Tom:Why do you think this? Is the following statement only "spiritual" as well? quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.
R:When Ellen White says that God destroys no man, she is referring to resistance to the light (spiritual self-destruction), not to physical destruction.
Tom:Why do you think this?
quote:
"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.
This is talking about physical calamities which cause physical death. Satan is the destroyer. He destroys when God permits him to do his destroying work.
Old Tom:The MH 416 quote I cited earlier brings this out. So do the Psalms and Job. For example, God set the limit to how far the waters may advance. New Orleans is but a small measure of how powerful the forces of nature are from which God constantly protects us. Consider what a comet or large asteroid would do if it collided with this planet. Or if the sun veered off course. Many examples could be given.
R:God set limits to the sea at Creation, and established the orbits of the heavenly bodies when He created them. Everything in the whole universe, fallen or unfallen, depends on God’s sustaining power. If God has to protect us from nature, God has to protect the unfallen worlds too. If God removes His hand, their planets and stars will also divert from their orbits, and if they have a sea, it is also God who fixes its limits. There, in the same way as here, it is by God’s power that vegetation flourishes. So I still see no evidence that God has to protect us from nature. What Ellen White says is that God limits Satan’s destructive manipulation of nature.
Tom:Creation is not something which is wound up like a watch. It requires God's constant oversight to make sure everything works correctly. If God were to remove His sustaining hand, we would be instantly destroyed. In point of fact, God does protect the unfallen worlds, just as he protects our fallen world.
Old Tom:It's not a matter of a one time request, but of a consistent, persistent resistance of the wooing of God's Spirit.
R:God’s departure from an individual or from a nation is one thing, physical destruction is another thing.
Tom:Why do you think this? The same principles are at work. God protects and sustains; the individual or nation persists in rebellion; God departs; the individual or nation suffers ruin. One sees the same principles expalined in Jer. 18 and Ex. 18 (the first for nations, the second for individuals). If you look at the writings of the Spirit of Prophesy in GC 35-37 (discussing a nation) and DA 764 (discussing the individual) the same principles are expressed, and virtually the same words.
Can you establish the principle that God's principles are different depending on whether He is dealing with nations or indiviuals?
R:God departed from pharao, as I pointed out, but pharao himself wasn’t physically destroyed.
Tom:Again, wasn't he destroyed physically in the Red Sea? I know in the movie the Ten Commandments Pharaoh watched from the sidelines, because for $100,000 (movie stars were cheap then) you don't kill Yule Brenner, but in real life, didn't Pharaoh die in the Red Sea? I don't think this makes any difference to the discussion, but I'm interested if I've been mistaken all these years.
R:Probably he died later in consequence of his own wrong choices. Saul, and later the israelites at the destruction of Jerusalem, suffered and died because of their own subsequent choices. But in the case of the flood, Sodom, the Egyptian army, you claim that God removed His protection and these people were immediately destroyed (and of course God knew that this was going to happen). Therefore, I just can’t see removing the reinforcement system as being in any way better than opening the floodgates.
God only employs physical destruction when He is forced to do this for the protection of others.
Tom:The difference is that in the one case God's actions are in harmony with the principles of His government, and the revelation of His character in the life of His Son, and in the other they aren't. In one case God is the destroyer, in the other, Satan in. In the one case force is a principle of God's government, in the other it isn't. In the one case, when we've seen Christ we've seen the Father, in the other we don't.
According to the Spirit of Prophesy, all we can know of God was revealed in the life of Jesus Christ. Where in the life of Jesus Christ is it revealed that God will use overwhelming force to get His way? Where is it revealed that God will inflict those who oppose Him with terrible diseases?
Is the Great Controversy being fought over God's power or His character?
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15393
09/06/05 02:48 AM
09/06/05 02:48 AM
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Mike, the Spirit of Prophesy says that all that we can know about God has been revealed in the life of His Son. Can you relat how Christ's life reveals to us the side of God's character where He inflicts those who disagree with Him with pestilence, or in any way harms or destroys them? I've somehow missed this from Christ's life. Christ told us to love our enemies, to turn the other cheek, to walk the extra mile. quote:
What He taught, He lived. "I have given you an example," He said to His disciples; "that ye should do as I have done." "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 13:15; 15:10. Thus in His life, Christ's words had perfect illustration and support. And more than this; what He taught, He was. His words were the expression, not only of His own life experience, but of His own character. Not only did He teach the truth, but He was the truth. It was this that gave His teaching, power. (Ed 78)
Christ's mission was to reveal the character of His Father. This character was one who did what He taught; He loved His enemies, He walked the second mile. He did no harm to those who did not appreciate Him.
quote:
There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. (DA 487)
God does not possess the spirit of Satan! He has no disposition to harm or destroy those who disagree with Him. However, if one stubornly resists His Spirit, He will eventually give such a one up to their choice.
quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15394
09/06/05 02:41 PM
09/06/05 02:41 PM
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Tom, posting quotes about the love of God, while ignoring the Flood, does not address the wrath of God. There is a point beyond which the mercy of God is exhausted. Once the cup of God's wrath is full mercy no longer pleads and retribution and vengeance is visited upon unsaved sinners. Nevertheless, the wrath of God is love.
Exodus
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].
Deuteronomy
32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.
32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
Psalm
149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
149:6 [Let] the high [praises] of God [be] in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people;
149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Tom, what is your opinion about the plain testimonies regarding the Flood? Do the Flood quotes tone down the "wrath of God" when they describe the Flood? Please, Tom, use the Flood quotes themselves to prove your point. Quoting unrelated passages in an attempt to prove God didn't cause the Flood isn't the same thing as quoting the Flood testimonies themselves. Thank you.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15395
09/06/05 02:49 PM
09/06/05 02:49 PM
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LDE 242
God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3}
God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}
Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}
The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber. It was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God.--AA 152 (1911). {LDE 243.3}
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15396
09/06/05 04:43 PM
09/06/05 04:43 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike, this is a long thread. It didn't get off the flood from my initiative. I have attempted to spin of other topics at times when this has happened. I have not responded to flood questions with unrelated quotes, but have responded to the unrelated questions with quotes which relate to the other questions brought up. Whatever has been brought up, I have responded to.
If you look through the posts, you will see there is an overall agreement (at least, this is what I have gathered) as to how the flood occurred.
Massive amounts of water were stored under the earth's crust, of which the antedeluvians were unaware. They thought that a flood would be impossible, because there wasn't enough water available to make it happen. The earth opened up, and the waters beneath the crust burst out, and this precepitated the flood.
The question comes up as to whether God was holding back the forces of these waters to burst forth until the time the flood occurred, at which point the waters burst forth and the flood happened, or whether everything was hunky dory until God decided to open the earth up, and then the flood happened.
Rosangela suggested it didn't make any difference which way it was at first, and then changed her mind to say it did make a difference; that the way of looking at things I suggested was inferior. I started a topic to discuss whether or not it makes a difference as to how we view what happened. She agreed that the way I was suggesting the flood occured was possible (although she thinks it is not probably).
I have not noticed in your response any attempt to related your view of things to the character of Jesus Christ. According to the Spirit of Prophesy, all that we can know of God was revealed in the life of Jesus Christ. Would you please explain to me how you see your view of God reflected in Jesus Christ's life?
Thank you.
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